<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>I don't buy the expense argument anymore. The $200-$400 Osiris from 3DHobbyShop winds up at $400-$800 all-up, depending on how you choose to equip it and is more than capable of turning in very respectable showing. </div><div><br></div><div>Now the $650 Vanquish even puts a full 2M plane in an affordable range. </div><div><br></div><div>Peter+<br><br>Sent from my iPhone4S</div><div><br>On Feb 2, 2012, at 12:50 PM, "Del" <<a href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com">drykert2@rochester.rr.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<div><strong><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Your right Peter.. The beauty of
that period of flying anyone with an Ugly stick or under powered kadet could
enter and fly pattern. Attendance at meets was amazing at most parts of country.
That style did get some heat as blamed for loss of fields from over flights of
homes etc. but if the full truth were to be looked at all flying endeavors loud
and noisy aircraft flying near and over homes was the bigger culprit. Pattern
was at the forefront of addressing that and mandating a reasonable sound level
at the nats especially but bonus points could be award for quiet aircraft and
penalties for noisy planes. </font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"> </font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">The other big advantage was as
recently petitioned people would come out and enjoy themselves flying after only
practicing the weekend before if at all and do fairly well sometimes. The
changes have hurt overall mass attendance but the quality of the flying by
competitors has improved dramatically. Some like that tradeoff. Others not so
much. Partially because of increased expenses to compete means they can't
participate and still feel they made a reasonable showing.
</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"> </font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">
Del</font></strong></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="vogel.peter@gmail.com" href="mailto:vogel.peter@gmail.com">Peter
Vogel</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:15
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd:
Another discussion topic relating tonewFAIrules</div>
<div><br></div>OK. Looking at some of the old rule books, I'm confused.
Take for example the novice sequence from 86-87:
<div>Takeoff</div>
<div>Straight flight out (U)</div>
<div>Procedure turn</div>
<div>Straight flight back (D)</div>
<div>Stall Turn (U)</div>
<div>Immelmann Turn (U)</div>
<div>3 inside loops (U)</div>
<div>One horizontal roll (D)</div>
<div>Landing</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>The procedure turn, stall turn, and Immelmann sure seem like turnarounds
to me, granted to meet the mandatory directions relative to wind you would
need to have a free turnaround between the straight flight back and the stall
turn, and another free turnaround between the stall and the Immelmann, etc.
So were all the "stunt" turns intended to be executed at show center
with a free turnaround outside the box between each maneuver? </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I'm amazed at the amount of "heat" (aka: passion) there seems to have
been in the K-factor around the change to turnaround schedules. I admit
I like my 2 "free" turnarounds outside the box in Sportsman between maneuvers
6+7 and 11+12 but I could muddle through without them if I had to, and I
honestly can't imagine flying such a disjoint sequence as the ones I'm seeing
in the old rulebooks. Hardly feels like a "sequence".</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Peter+</div>
<div><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:43 AM, J N Hiller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div lang="EN-US" vlink="blue" link="blue" bgcolor="white">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The sequences flown were
published in the old rule books. Be aware that over the years some of the
class names changed.<u></u><u></u></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Some time back I applied
K-factors to those non-turnaround schedules to try to understand the
migration of increasing difficulty, concluding that the K-factor alone is a
poor indicator of actual difficulty. But we all step up to the challenge
regardless of the difficulty.<u></u><u></u></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Jim
<u></u><u></u></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u></span></font></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u></span></font></span> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Tahoma"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></font></p>
<div class="im"><font color="black" face="Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Peter Vogel<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012 11:23
AM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> General pattern
discussion<br></font></div>
<div>
<div class="h5"><font color="black" face="Tahoma"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</span></b> NSRCA Discussion List<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd:
Another discussion topic relating tonew FAIrules</font></div></div>
<p></p>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u></span></font> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I was reading some of
the archived K-factors and it got me curious, is there an archive of the
sequences pre-turnaround?</span></font><font color="black"><span><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></font><font color="black"><span><u></u><u></u></span></font> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Peter+<br><br>Sent from
my iPhone4S</span></font><font color="black"><span><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><br>On Jan 31, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Joe Lachowski
<<a href="mailto:jlachow@hotmail.com" target="_blank">jlachow@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></font><font color="black"><span><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You
can log on at the NSRCA website and then proceed to the judges section
and click on archived documents. Thanks to Jim Hiller who provided me a lot
of these, I was able to scan them in and put them into the PDF Format.
Anyone who has anything older than whats up there, send a hard copy to me to
scan and I'll have Derek put them up.<br> </span></font><font color="black"><span><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div></div>
<div style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><font color="black" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:45:38 -0800<br>From: <a href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules<br><br>We have a pretty good collection of AMA and FAI rule books
on the website if anyone wants to see what rules were like, or how much they
have changed over the years... </span></font><font color="black"><span><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></font><font color="black"><span><u></u><u></u></span></font> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Click on the link below:</span></font><font color="black"><span><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></font><font color="black"><span><u></u><u></u></span></font> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><a href="http://nsrca.us/index.php/archiveddocuments" target="_blank">http://nsrca.us/index.php/archiveddocuments</a> </span></font><font color="black"><span><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></font><font color="black"><span><u></u><u></u></span></font> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On
Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Jon Lowe <<a href="mailto:jonlowe@aol.com" target="_blank">jonlowe@aol.com</a>> wrote:</span></font><font color="black"><span><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 0.75pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<p style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">It would appear that the FAI is
going down the same road as IMAC, with IMAC's subjective "airspace control"
factor. The smoothness and gracefulness 25% gives a judge a
non-objective way to give a downgrade of 2 to 3 points. Since there is
no scoring criteria for it that I could find, other than Michael Ramel's
instructions to the judges at the WC, I'm not sure what we do with it.
I would think that his instructions would have been protestable, if anyone
had wanted to go down that path, since I'm unaware of any official FAI rule
interpretation saying, for example, that constant speed is a part of
smoothness and gracefulness. I'm sure he was just trying to give
meaning to a poorly writen criteria.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></font> </p>
<p style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Very sorry to see the FAI going
this way.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="4" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Jon</span></font><font color="black" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="3" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u></span></font> </p>
<p style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in" class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Arial"></font></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>NSRCA-discussion mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></div></blockquote></body></html>