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Way back when at the Nats (1986 I think) watching a friend fly a
near perfect 8 point roll in the old AMA Expert pattern from horizon
to horizon. The way they were meant to be done :) Scores from one
judge was a 5? When asked after the flight why, the judge responded
because the roll to the points were not quick enough, not enough of
a "snap" to each point. Even though there were no specific rules to
govern the speed of the roll in the 8 point it was a subjective
thing that one judge thought looked better. This was before our
current judging guidelines and judging schools. Although not
perfect and always a moving target the current guidelines at least
allowed us to get away from some of the subjectivity. I would hate
to back in that direction. This is one of the issues I have with
IMAC although I have flown a few of their contests.<br>
<br>
Stuart C.<br>
<br>
On 1/31/2012 9:24 PM, Dave Lockhart wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:028101cce088$a0f5a910$e2e0fb30$@comcast.net"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Mark,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">While
I follow your line of thinking…….and certainly agree that
the perceived geometry is what gets scored. However,
consider –<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">A
square loop with half rolls is given a 9 because 1 roll was
off by 15 degrees. No downgrades were noted for position,
size, s+g, and the maneuver did not exceed the box.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">A
geometrically perfect square loop is given an 8 because it
was deemed to lack sufficient s+g. Exactly why were the two
points deducted? Who knows. Might have been the artistic
opportunity missed when the pilot didn’t nicely frame a
cumulus cloud within the loop….might have been sound of the
airplane wasn’t quite right….might have been the color
contrast on white clouds was too bold. Or…it could have
been the judge and pilot have different opinions on what the
ideal radius or roll rate is…BUT….a style allowance has
always been in the rules…specific styles are not supposed to
be rewarded or downgraded.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Go
fast, turn left……maybe more objective…but….do you think some
pilots get a little more leniency on cut calls? </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
Still a judgement being made by a ……well……judge.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
Dave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Mark Atwood<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012 10:49 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another
discussion topic relating to new FAIrules<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dave, the answer, by your own math, is that
a geometrically perfect maneuver can't be beaten purely by
other criteria. With geometry making up 50% of the score, no
amount of smoothness can be valued MORE than precision. <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I could also argue that a geometrically
"perfect" maneuver would always have at least some level of
gracefulness based on that perfect geometry. They're not
completely independent. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Unfortunately S&G is completely
subjective, and as analytical people, we're not too keen on
subjectivity. But that's the nature of the sport. It's
perceived precision, not measured. Vertical lines at the
end of the box don't need to BE vertical, they need to LOOK
vertical, etc. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If we want purely objective scoring...
look to racing. Go fast, bank left, pull. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">Mark
Atwood</span></b><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">Paragon
Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span
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style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">|</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"> President</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">5885 Landerbrook Drive
Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">Phone:
440.684.3101 x102 </span><b><span
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440.684.3102</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1351F3"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a> </span><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">|</span></b><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1351F3"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Jan 31, 2012, at 10:37 AM, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
There has never been guidance for s+g downgrades in AMA
or FAI.....which is why I have always advocated s+g
should be eliminated from the judging criteria. Of
course if I am mistaken about the goal of pattern being
precision aerobatics, then maybe s+g should be the only
criteria.<br>
<br>
I've never gotten an answer to this question. How can a
geometrically perfect maneuver be outscored by a
geometrically flawed maneuver? Of course with the new
FAI scoring.....it would seem that geometrically perfect
maneuver might only be scored a 5.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="htc_header">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">-----
Reply message -----<br>
From: "Ronald Van Putte" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>><br>
Date: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 09:49<br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion
topic relating to new FAIrules<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">After thinking about this further, I
wonder how the change in ranking affects anything.
Positioning has specific downgrades (2 point downgrade
for each 1/4 of the maneuver off center). However, I am
unaware of any specific downgrades for smoothness and
gracefulness.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ron Van Putte<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Begin forwarded message:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">From:
</span></b><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Ronald
Van Putte <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Date:
</span></b><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">January
31, 2012 8:24:56 AM CST</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">To:
</span></b><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">General
pattern discussion <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion
topic relating to new FAIrules</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Reply-To:
</span></b><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">General
pattern discussion <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">That's interesting. I know #2.
and #3. were in reverse order before. I don't
remember a rules change vote on this.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ron Van Putte<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Jan 31, 2012, at 8:19
AM, Bob Kane wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="color:black">FWIW, this is
identical to to the ranking in the AMA
Competition regulations:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="color:black">From the current
AMA document (RCA-12):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">1.</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">
Precision of the maneuver.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">2.</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">
Smoothness and gracefulness of the
maneuver. </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">3.</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">
Positioning or display of the
maneuver.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">4.
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Size
or dimensions of the maneuver relative
to the maneuvering area, distance from
the judges, and other maneuvers in the
flight. </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">The above
criteria are listed in order of
importance; however, all of them must
be met for a maneuver to be rated
perfect. </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="color:black">Bob Kane <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">
J N Hiller <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern
discussion <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 31,
2012 3:51 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Another
discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div id="yiv458482347">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
class="yiv458482347emailstyle15"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">I
would have thought
positioning rated a higher
precision aerobatics.
Smoothness and
gracefulness is polish.</span></span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
class="yiv458482347emailstyle15"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Jim</span></span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
class="yiv458482347emailstyle15"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"> </span></span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a><b>On
Behalf Of </b><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net">tocdon@netscape.net</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January
30, 2012 6:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b>
[NSRCA-discussion] Another
discussion topic relating to
new FAIrules</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">This
will keep the list going
(and the discussions too).
I recall Michael Ramel
clearly discussing the
future of the rules during
the judges training at the
World Championships at
Muncie. This was relating
to smoothness and
gracefulness being directly
related to constant speed.
The following reflects what
he discussed, as cited on
page 35, and effect the way
a score is awarded:</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Geometry:
50%</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Smoothness
and Gracefulness: 25%</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Position
of maneuver: 12.5%</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Size
of maneuver: 12.5%</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Proportion
of the maneuver outside the
(box) in addition to above.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">The
specific, objective criteria
used to judge smoothness and
gracefulness includes,
"maintaining constant speed
throughout various maneuver
components, like climbing
and decending sections..."</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Also
the sentence about radii
being very loose or very
tight, even if equal
size within a maneuver, are
grounds for downgrade of
smoothness and gracefulness.</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Cheers,</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Don</span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span
style="color:black"><br>
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Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4778 - Release Date:
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