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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle31><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Yah, I
remember those 8-point rolls, out of the box on both ends flying about 100 m
out.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle31><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle31><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>These were
rough times. The USPJA in the NW was fading and chairs were filled with marginally
trained club judges who would seldom sit through subsequent contests. The other
thing we had to deal with before the NSRCA formalized training and
certification was local interpretation of the rules. One could find themselves being
judged to significantly different criteria in different parts of the country.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle31><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle31><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Interesting
you should bring up roll rates in point rolls. The current flying style of
using very slow roll rates make it difficult to judge variable rate when
slowing the rate to sneak up on the point. These slow roll rates take up a lot
of room leaving little time or distance to demonstrate the hesitation which in
some cases appears to be absent requiring zeroing the maneuver. I guess this
evolves from the emphasis on S&G.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle31><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle31><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle31><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle31><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle31><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Stuart Chale<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012
7:51 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Way back when at the Nats
(1986 I think) watching a friend fly a near perfect 8 point roll in the old AMA
Expert pattern from horizon to horizon. The way they were meant to be
done :) Scores from one judge was a 5? When asked after the flight
why, the judge responded because the roll to the points were not quick enough,
not enough of a "snap" to each point. Even though there were no
specific rules to govern the speed of the roll in the 8 point it was a
subjective thing that one judge thought looked better. This was before
our current judging guidelines and judging schools. Although not perfect
and always a moving target the current guidelines at least allowed us to
get away from some of the subjectivity. I would hate to back in that
direction. This is one of the issues I have with IMAC although I have
flown a few of their contests.<br>
<br>
Stuart C.<br>
<br>
On 1/31/2012 9:24 PM, Dave Lockhart wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<u1:shapedefaults u2:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"/>
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</xml><![endif]-->Mark,<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><u5:p> </u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>While
I follow your line of thinking…….and certainly agree that the perceived
geometry is what gets scored. However, consider –<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><u5:p> </u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>A
square loop with half rolls is given a 9 because 1 roll was off by 15 degrees.
No downgrades were noted for position, size, s+g, and the maneuver did not
exceed the box.<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><u5:p> </u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>A
geometrically perfect square loop is given an 8 because it was deemed to lack
sufficient s+g. Exactly why were the two points deducted? Who
knows. Might have been the artistic opportunity missed when the pilot
didn’t nicely frame a cumulus cloud within the loop….might have been sound of
the airplane wasn’t quite right….might have been the color contrast on white
clouds was too bold. Or…it could have been the judge and pilot have
different opinions on what the ideal radius or roll rate is…BUT….a style
allowance has always been in the rules…specific styles are not supposed to be
rewarded or downgraded.<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><u5:p> </u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Go
fast, turn left……maybe more objective…but….do you think some pilots get a
little more leniency on cut calls? </span></font><font size=2
color="#1f497d" face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;
color:#1F497D'>J</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> Still a
judgement being made by a ……well……judge.<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><u5:p> </u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Regards,<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><br>
Dave<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><u5:p> </u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-top-alt:
solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Atwood<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012
10:49 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><u5:p><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Dave, the answer, by your
own math, is that a geometrically perfect maneuver can't be beaten purely by
other criteria. With geometry making up 50% of the score, no amount of
smoothness can be valued MORE than precision. <u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><u5:p><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I could also argue that a
geometrically "perfect" maneuver would always have at least some
level of gracefulness based on that perfect geometry. They're not
completely independent. <u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><u5:p><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Unfortunately S&G is
completely subjective, and as analytical people, we're not too keen on
subjectivity. But that's the nature of the sport. It's perceived
precision, not measured. Vertical lines at the end of the box
don't need to BE vertical, they need to LOOK vertical, etc. <u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><u5:p><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>If we want purely
objective scoring... look to racing. Go fast, bank left, pull. <u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><u5:p><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><u5:p><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:
bold'>Mark Atwood<u5:p></u5:p></span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold'>Paragon
Consulting, Inc.</span></font></b><font size=1 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> </span></font><b><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font size=1 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> President<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana'>5885 Landerbrook Drive
Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span></font><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Verdana'> <u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana'>Phone:
440.684.3101 x102 </span></font><b><font size=1 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font
size=1 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana'> Fax:
440.684.3102<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=1 color="#1351f3"
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#1351F3'><a
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com" moz-do-not-send=true>mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a> </span></font><b><font
size=1 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font size=1 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana'> </span></font><font
size=1 color="#1351f3" face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:
Verdana;color:#1351F3'><a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/"
moz-do-not-send=true>www.paragon-inc.com</a><u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=4 color=black
face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica'><u5:p> </u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><u5:p><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><u5:p><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Jan 31, 2012, at 10:37
AM, <a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" moz-do-not-send=true>DaveL322@comcast.net</a>
wrote:<u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><u5:p><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
There has never been guidance for s+g downgrades in AMA or FAI.....which is why
I have always advocated s+g should be eliminated from the judging criteria.
Of course if I am mistaken about the goal of pattern being precision
aerobatics, then maybe s+g should be the only criteria.<br>
<br>
I've never gotten an answer to this question. How can a geometrically
perfect maneuver be outscored by a geometrically flawed maneuver? Of
course with the new FAI scoring.....it would seem that geometrically perfect
maneuver might only be scored a 5.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!<u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id="htc_header">
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>----- Reply message -----<br>
From: "Ronald Van Putte" <<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net"
moz-do-not-send=true>vanputte@cox.net</a>><br>
Date: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 09:49<br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>After thinking about this
further, I wonder how the change in ranking affects anything.
Positioning has specific downgrades (2 point downgrade for each 1/4 of
the maneuver off center). However, I am unaware of any specific downgrades
for smoothness and gracefulness.<u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><u5:p><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Ron Van Putte<u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><u5:p><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Begin forwarded message:<u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font><u5:p></u5:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font size=4 color=black
face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;font-weight:
bold'>From: </span></font></b><font size=4 face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica'>Ronald Van Putte <<a
href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net" moz-do-not-send=true>vanputte@cox.net</a>></span></font><u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font size=4 color=black
face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;font-weight:
bold'>Date: </span></font></b><font size=4 face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica'>January 31, 2012 8:24:56 AM CST</span></font><u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font size=4 color=black
face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;font-weight:
bold'>To: </span></font></b><font size=4 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica'>General pattern discussion <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span></font><u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font size=4 color=black
face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;font-weight:
bold'>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules</span></font></b><u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font size=4 color=black
face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;font-weight:
bold'>Reply-To: </span></font></b><font size=4 face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica'>General pattern discussion <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span></font><u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><u5:p><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>That's interesting.
I know #2. and #3. were in reverse order before. I don't remember a
rules change vote on this.<u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><u5:p><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Ron Van Putte<u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><u5:p><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Jan 31, 2012, at 8:19
AM, Bob Kane wrote:<u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font><u5:p></u5:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>FWIW, this is
identical to to the ranking in the AMA Competition regulations:<u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>From the
current AMA document (RCA-12):<u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><b><font size=2
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>1.</span></font></b><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>
Precision of the maneuver.<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><b><font size=2
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>2.</span></font></b><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>
Smoothness and gracefulness of the maneuver. <u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><b><font size=2
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>3.</span></font></b><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>
Positioning or display of the maneuver.<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><b><font size=2
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>4. </span></font></b><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Size or
dimensions of the maneuver relative to the maneuvering area, distance from the
judges, and other maneuvers in the flight. <u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>The above
criteria are listed in order of importance; however, all of them must be met
for a maneuver to be rated perfect. <u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Bob Kane <a
href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com" moz-do-not-send=true>getterflash@yahoo.com</a><u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><b><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> J N Hiller <<a
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" moz-do-not-send=true>jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012
3:51 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p> </u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=yiv458482347>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><span
class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I would have thought
positioning rated a higher precision aerobatics. Smoothness and gracefulness is
polish.<u5:p></u5:p></span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><span
class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jim<u5:p></u5:p></span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><span
class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> <u5:p></u5:p></span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
<a href="mailto:%5Bmailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D"
moz-do-not-send=true>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a><b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b><a
href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net" moz-do-not-send=true>tocdon@netscape.net</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, January 30, 2012
6:06 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" moz-do-not-send=true>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [NSRCA-discussion]
Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <u5:p></u5:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This
will keep the list going (and the discussions too). I recall Michael
Ramel clearly discussing the future of the rules during the judges training at
the World Championships at Muncie. This was relating to smoothness
and gracefulness being directly related to constant speed. The following
reflects what he discussed, as cited on page 35, and effect the way a score is
awarded:<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Geometry:
50%<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Smoothness
and Gracefulness: 25%<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Position
of maneuver: 12.5%<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Size of
maneuver: 12.5%<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Proportion
of the maneuver outside the (box) in addition to above.<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The
specific, objective criteria used to judge smoothness and gracefulness
includes, "maintaining constant speed throughout various maneuver
components, like climbing and decending sections..."<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Also
the sentence about radii being very loose or very tight, even
if equal size within a maneuver, are grounds for downgrade of
smoothness and gracefulness.<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Cheers,<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Don<u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:1.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <u5:p></u5:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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