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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>i had the same experience as John, i was about ready to quit
when turn around came on the scene regardless of the fact that i was doing
really well with the original ama style. it took massive amounts of land area
and was really noisy. i got where i couldn't stand the noise and i had people
coming from a mile away complaining about the noise. some of those people were
not pleasant. i had people complaining about flyovers, etc. i was glad big
time when it changed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>mike harrison<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
Fuqua<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relatingto
new FAIrules<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>One the other hand I had quit pattern because I got
bored. But when turnaround came on the scene I got really excited
about it and have been going at it ever since. I remember all the
arguments pro and con. Yes a lot of folks quit. But for
those that stuck with it have greatly improved their skills that most
would not have learned otherwise.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>John Fuqua<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark
Atwood<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012 6:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relatingto
new FAIrules<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>My recall is slightly different from Verne's but similar. I
started Pattern in '89 so I lived through the transition as I moved up through
Novice, Sportsman and Advanced. My recall was that most of us in
Sportsman and Advanced were excited to see turn around coming. It was
mostly the more advanced and veteran fliers that were opposed to the change.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>But where Verne is 100% on the money is the change to local
contests. It wasn't just the Sportsman guys that we lost. We lost
ALL the "old pattern guys" that no longer toured the circuit, but
loved to come to the local contest and show their stuff. In cleveland we
would get 10+ guys that USED to travel, flew all the various classes that prior
to turnaround would come out the day before the contest with a dusted off Dirty
Birdy and practice a few maneuvers, and then fly the contest VERY competently.
Prior to turn around, a former advanced flier could come out and have
someone call them through the maneuvers and be competent. Once turnaround
came in, there was no chance. A year or two of looking foolish,
and they stopped participating. Our contests went from 40 to 30
contestants almost overnight. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mark Atwood</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><b><span
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style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> President</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite
130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 </span><b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> Fax:
440.684.3102</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1351F3'><a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a> </span><b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1351F3'><a
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Jan 31, 2012, at 7:12 PM, Verne Koester wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:13.5pt'><span class=apple-style-span><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>When
I flew Advanced in the 1990 Nats, Sportsman (now Intermediate) and Advanced
shared the same flight line and the switch was all anybody was talking about
and it was very heated as you recall. I remember a bunch of Sportsman guys
saying that if we went to all turnaround, they wouldn’t be back.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I
think the Sportsman (now Intermediate) class saw the biggest decline when it
changed to turnaround and it’s taken a long time to get it back. I feel
fortunate to have come up through the system where everything was a
center maneuver. Back then, you could really focus on the geometry and
precision of a maneuver and then get a short breather while you turned around
without being scored and without being confined to a box.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I
also remember the Sportsman class pretty much funding local contests because it
was occupied mostly by local guys who rarely traveled more than 80 – 100 miles
to compete. You could go to another region a couple hundred miles away and
there’d be a whole different group of ten or so guys flying in Sportsman there.
All those guys did a pretty credible job without spending the money and time it
takes to be competitive now. I think it’s unfortunate that we don’t start off
pilots that way now and campaigned for it for a long time. I finally got tired
of all the arguments pro and con and gave up.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Verne</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-width:initial;border-color:initial'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>[<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>J N Hiller<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Tuesday, January 31,
2012 6:43 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>General pattern
discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relatingto new FAIrules</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=emailstyle29><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Verne, I also flue expert
turnaround, advancing to masters when it was discontinued.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=emailstyle29><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>After flying turnaround in sport
aerobatics, commonly referred to as IMAC I had already been indoctrinated and
didn't care to fly another full throttle half reverse cuban eight a 1/3 of a
mile out.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=emailstyle29><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>You probably also remember the
sometimes heated pro and con discussions appearing in the model press leading
up to the change. It was an interesting time.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=emailstyle29><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Jim</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=emailstyle29><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a><b>On
Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Verne Koester<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Tuesday, January 31,
2012 1:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>'General pattern
discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relatingto new FAIrules</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi
Peter,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If
you want to see how AMA pattern looked prior to turnaround, download the
1988-89 rulebook. FAI had already started flying turnaround but it naturally
won’t appear in the rulebooks. If you also download the 1990-91 rulebook,
you’ll see how the transition started. Masters went from a “build your own”
schedule to a fixed set of non-turnaround maneuvers and Expert was introduced
as the first AMA all-turnaround schedule. You then have to download 92-93
rulebook and the 94-95 version to see the transition progress. Along the way,
Expert was dropped and Advanced and Masters were made all turnaround.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We
lost a BUNCH of competitors as all of this took place who didn’t want to make
the transition. As time went on, the transition filtered down through the
classes to what we have today. To see how it took place, One only needs to look
at the schedules and how they changed from 1988 through 1995. Each rulebook in
between those periods made changes to complete the transition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Verne
Koester</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>BTW,
I was one of many who opposed the changes because I could see we were going to
lose a bunch of guys in the process but I was too hooked to walk away. I could
see the writing on the wall and made the transition. In 1990, I flew Advanced
at the Nats (pre-turnaround) and in 1991 I flew Expert Turnaround at the Nats.
When Expert was dropped in 1992, those in that class had the option of going to
Advanced which was now turnaround but easier than Expert or Masters which was
also made all-turnaround but harder than Expert.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
margin-left:.5in;border-width:initial;border-color:initial'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> </span></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Peter Vogel<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Tuesday, January 31,
2012 2:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>General pattern
discussion<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>NSRCA Discussion List<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I was reading some of the archived
K-factors and it got me curious, is there an archive of the sequences
pre-turnaround?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Peter+<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone4S</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'><br>
On Jan 31, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Joe Lachowski <<a
href="mailto:jlachow@hotmail.com">jlachow@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>You can log on at the NSRCA
website and then proceed to the judges section and click on archived documents.
Thanks to Jim Hiller who provided me a lot of these, I was able to scan them in
and put them into the PDF Format. Anyone who has anything older than whats up
there, send a hard copy to me to scan and I'll have Derek put them up.<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='color:black'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:45:38
-0800<br>
From:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com">derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</a><br>
To:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules<br>
<br>
We have a pretty good collection of AMA and FAI rule books on the website if
anyone wants to see what rules were like, or how much they have changed over
the years...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Click on the link below:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><a
href="http://nsrca.us/index.php/archiveddocuments" target="_blank">http://nsrca.us/index.php/archiveddocuments</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 8:17 AM,
Jon Lowe <<a href="mailto:jonlowe@aol.com">jonlowe@aol.com</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>It
would appear that the FAI is going down the same road as IMAC, with IMAC's
subjective "airspace control" factor. The smoothness and
gracefulness 25% gives a judge a non-objective way to give a downgrade of 2 to
3 points. Since there is no scoring criteria for it that I could find, other
than Michael Ramel's instructions to the judges at the WC, I'm not sure what we
do with it. I would think that his instructions would have been
protestable, if anyone had wanted to go down that path, since I'm unaware of
any official FAI rule interpretation saying, for example, that constant
speed is a part of smoothness and gracefulness. I'm sure he was just
trying to give meaning to a poorly writen criteria.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Very sorry to see the FAI going this way.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Jon</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Mark Atwood <<a href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com">atwoodm@paragon-inc.com</a>><br>
To: General pattern discussion <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 9:49 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Dave, the answer, by your own math, is that a geometrically
perfect maneuver can't be beaten purely by other criteria. With geometry
making up 50% of the score, no amount of smoothness can be valued MORE than
precision. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>I could also argue that a geometrically "perfect"
maneuver would always have at least some level of gracefulness based on that
perfect geometry. They're not completely independent. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Unfortunately S&G is completely subjective, and as analytical
people, we're not too keen on subjectivity. But that's the nature of the
sport. It's perceived precision, not measured. Vertical
lines at the end of the box don't need to BE vertical, they need to LOOK vertical,
etc. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>If we want purely objective scoring... look to racing. Go
fast, bank left, pull. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mark Atwood</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> President</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite
130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 </span><b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> Fax:
440.684.3102</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1351F3'><a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a> </span><b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1351F3'><a
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>On Jan 31, 2012, at 10:37 AM,<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><br>
There has never been guidance for s+g downgrades in AMA or FAI.....which is why
I have always advocated s+g should be eliminated from the judging criteria.
Of course if I am mistaken about the goal of pattern being precision
aerobatics, then maybe s+g should be the only criteria.<br>
<br>
I've never gotten an answer to this question. How can a geometrically
perfect maneuver be outscored by a geometrically flawed maneuver? Of
course with the new FAI scoring.....it would seem that geometrically perfect
maneuver might only be scored a 5.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>----- Reply message -----<br>
From: "Ronald Van Putte" <<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>><br>
Date: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 09:49<br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>After thinking about this further, I wonder how the change in
ranking affects anything. Positioning has specific downgrades (2
point downgrade for each 1/4 of the maneuver off center). However, I am
unaware of any specific downgrades for smoothness and gracefulness.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Ron Van Putte</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.0in;margin-right:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Begin forwarded message:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.5in;margin-right:1.0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.5in;margin-right:1.0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></b><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Ronald
Van Putte <<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.5in;margin-right:1.0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Date:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></b><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>January
31, 2012 8:24:56 AM CST</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.5in;margin-right:1.0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>To:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></b><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>General
pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.5in;margin-right:1.0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Subject:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></b><b><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.5in;margin-right:1.0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Reply-To:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></b><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>General
pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.5in;margin-right:1.0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.5in;margin-right:1.0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>That's interesting. I know #2. and #3. were in reverse order
before. I don't remember a rules change vote on this.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.5in;margin-right:1.0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.5in;margin-right:1.0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Ron Van Putte</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.5in;margin-right:1.0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:1.5in;margin-right:1.0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>On Jan 31, 2012, at 8:19 AM, Bob Kane wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>FWIW, this is identical to to the
ranking in the AMA Competition regulations:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>From the current AMA document
(RCA-12):</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>1.</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Precision of the maneuver.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>2.</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Smoothness and gracefulness of the
maneuver.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>3.</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Positioning or display of the maneuver.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>4.<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:black'>Size or dimensions of the maneuver relative to the
maneuvering area, distance from the judges, and other maneuvers in the flight.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>The above
criteria are listed in order of importance; however, all of them must be met
for a maneuver to be rated perfect.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Bob Kane<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>J N Hiller <<a href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>><br>
<b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>General pattern
discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Tuesday, January 31,
2012 3:51 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I would have thought positioning rated a higher precision
aerobatics. Smoothness and gracefulness is polish.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Jim</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:2.0in;margin-right:1.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>[<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b>On
Behalf Of</b><a href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net">tocdon@netscape.net</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Monday, January 30,
2012 6:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>[NSRCA-discussion]
Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>This will keep the list going (and the discussions too). I
recall Michael Ramel clearly discussing the future of the rules during the
judges training at the World Championships at Muncie. This
was relating to smoothness and gracefulness being directly related to
constant speed. The following reflects what he discussed, as cited on
page 35, and effect the way a score is awarded:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Geometry: 50%</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Smoothness and Gracefulness: 25%</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Position of maneuver: 12.5%</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Size of maneuver: 12.5%</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Proportion of the maneuver outside the (box) in addition to above.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>The specific, objective criteria used to judge smoothness and
gracefulness includes, "maintaining constant speed throughout various
maneuver components, like climbing and decending sections..."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Also the sentence about radii being very loose or very tight,
even if equal size within a maneuver, are grounds for downgrade
of smoothness and gracefulness.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Don</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><tt><span style='color:black'>_______________________________________________</span></tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><tt><span style='color:black'>NSRCA-discussion mailing list</span></tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><tt><span style='color:black'><a
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span></tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre
style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:
1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><tt><span style='color:black'><a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></tt><o:p></o:p></pre>
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