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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Ron,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I couldn’t agree more!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ronald Van Putte<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012 10:49 AM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>In the absence of specific downgrades for smoothness and gracefulness, one must do "impression judging" for smoothness and gracefulness. That's exactly what we have been trying to steer judging away from for years.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Ron<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Jan 31, 2012, at 9:37 AM, <a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>There has never been guidance for s+g downgrades in AMA or FAI.....which is why I have always advocated s+g should be eliminated from the judging criteria. Of course if I am mistaken about the goal of pattern being precision aerobatics, then maybe s+g should be the only criteria.<br><br>I've never gotten an answer to this question. How can a geometrically perfect maneuver be outscored by a geometrically flawed maneuver? Of course with the new FAI scoring.....it would seem that geometrically perfect maneuver might only be scored a 5.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Dave<br><br>Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!<o:p></o:p></p><div id="htc_header"><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>----- Reply message -----<br>From: "Ronald Van Putte" <<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>><br>Date: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 09:49<br>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules<br>To: "General pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>After thinking about this further, I wonder how the change in ranking affects anything. Positioning has specific downgrades (2 point downgrade for each 1/4 of the maneuver off center). However, I am unaware of any specific downgrades for smoothness and gracefulness.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Ron Van Putte<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Begin forwarded message:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Ronald Van Putte <<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Date: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>January 31, 2012 8:24:56 AM CST</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>To: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Reply-To: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>That's interesting. I know #2. and #3. were in reverse order before. I don't remember a rules change vote on this.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Ron Van Putte<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Jan 31, 2012, at 8:19 AM, Bob Kane wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>FWIW, this is identical to to the ranking in the AMA Competition regulations:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>From the current AMA document (RCA-12):<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>1.</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> Precision of the maneuver.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>2.</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> Smoothness and gracefulness of the maneuver. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>3.</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> Positioning or display of the maneuver.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>4. </span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Size or dimensions of the maneuver relative to the maneuvering area, distance from the judges, and other maneuvers in the flight. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>The above criteria are listed in order of importance; however, all of them must be met for a maneuver to be rated perfect. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>Bob Kane <a href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> J N Hiller <<a href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>><br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012 3:51 AM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id=yiv458482347><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>I would have thought positioning rated a higher precision aerobatics. Smoothness and gracefulness is polish.</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Jim</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'> </span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> <a href="mailto:[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a><b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net">tocdon@netscape.net</a><br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 30, 2012 6:06 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>This will keep the list going (and the discussions too). I recall Michael Ramel clearly discussing the future of the rules during the judges training at the World Championships at Muncie. This was relating to smoothness and gracefulness being directly related to constant speed. The following reflects what he discussed, as cited on page 35, and effect the way a score is awarded:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Geometry: 50%</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Smoothness and Gracefulness: 25%</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Position of maneuver: 12.5%</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Size of maneuver: 12.5%</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Proportion of the maneuver outside the (box) in addition to above.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The specific, objective criteria used to judge smoothness and gracefulness includes, "maintaining constant speed throughout various maneuver components, like climbing and decending sections..."</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Also the sentence about radii being very loose or very tight, even if equal size within a maneuver, are grounds for downgrade of smoothness and gracefulness.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Cheers,</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Don</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists..nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>