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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Mark,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>While I follow your line of thinking&#8230;&#8230;.and certainly agree that the perceived geometry is what gets scored.&nbsp; However, consider &#8211;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>A square loop with half rolls is given a 9 because 1 roll was off by 15 degrees.&nbsp; No downgrades were noted for position, size, s+g, and the maneuver did not exceed the box.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>A geometrically perfect square loop is given an 8 because it was deemed to lack sufficient s+g.&nbsp; Exactly why were the two points deducted? &nbsp;Who knows.&nbsp; Might have been the artistic opportunity missed when the pilot didn&#8217;t nicely frame a cumulus cloud within the loop&#8230;.might have been sound of the airplane wasn&#8217;t quite right&#8230;.might have been the color contrast on white clouds was too bold.&nbsp; Or&#8230;it could have been the judge and pilot have different opinions on what the ideal radius or roll rate is&#8230;BUT&#8230;.a style allowance has always been in the rules&#8230;specific styles are not supposed to be rewarded or downgraded.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Go fast, turn left&#8230;&#8230;maybe more objective&#8230;but&#8230;.do you think some pilots get a little more leniency on cut calls?&nbsp; </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp; Still a judgement being made by a &#8230;&#8230;well&#8230;&#8230;judge.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Atwood<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012 10:49 AM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Dave, the answer, by your own math, is that a geometrically perfect maneuver can't be beaten purely by other criteria. &nbsp; With geometry making up 50% of the score, no amount of smoothness can be valued MORE than precision. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I could also argue that a geometrically &quot;perfect&quot; maneuver would always have at least some level of gracefulness based on that perfect geometry. &nbsp;They're not completely independent. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Unfortunately S&amp;G is completely subjective, and as analytical people, we're not too keen on subjectivity. &nbsp;But that's the nature of the sport. &nbsp;It's perceived precision, not measured. &nbsp; &nbsp;Vertical lines at the end of the box don't need to BE vertical, they need to LOOK vertical, etc. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If we want purely objective scoring... look to racing. &nbsp;Go fast, bank left, pull. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Mark Atwood</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;President</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>5885&nbsp;Landerbrook&nbsp;Drive Suite 130,&nbsp;Cleveland&nbsp;Ohio,&nbsp;44124</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Phone: 440.684.3101 x102&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;Fax: 440.684.3102</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1351F3'><a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1351F3'><a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Jan 31, 2012, at 10:37 AM, <a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>There has never been guidance for s+g downgrades in AMA or FAI.....which is why I have always advocated s+g should be eliminated from the judging criteria. &nbsp;Of course if I am mistaken about the goal of pattern being precision aerobatics, then maybe s+g should be the only criteria.<br><br>I've never gotten an answer to this question. &nbsp;How can a geometrically perfect maneuver be outscored by a geometrically flawed maneuver? &nbsp;Of course with the new FAI scoring.....it would seem that geometrically perfect maneuver might only be scored a 5.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Dave<br><br>Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!<o:p></o:p></p><div id="htc_header"><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>----- Reply message -----<br>From: &quot;Ronald Van Putte&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>&gt;<br>Date: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 09:49<br>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules<br>To: &quot;General pattern discussion&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>After thinking about this further, I wonder how the change in &nbsp;ranking affects anything. &nbsp;Positioning has specific downgrades (2 point downgrade for each 1/4 of the maneuver off center). &nbsp;However, I am unaware of any specific downgrades for smoothness and gracefulness.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Ron Van Putte<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Begin forwarded message:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Ronald Van Putte &lt;<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Date: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>January 31, 2012 8:24:56 AM CST</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>To: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>General pattern discussion &lt;<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Reply-To: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>General pattern discussion &lt;<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>That's interesting. &nbsp;I know #2. and #3. were in reverse order before. &nbsp;I don't remember a rules change vote on this.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Ron Van Putte<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Jan 31, 2012, at 8:19 AM, Bob Kane wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>FWIW, this is identical to to the ranking in the AMA Competition regulations:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>From the current AMA document (RCA-12):<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>1.</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> Precision of the maneuver.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>2.</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> Smoothness and gracefulness of the maneuver. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>3.</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> Positioning or display of the maneuver.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>4. </span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Size or dimensions of the maneuver relative to the maneuvering area, distance from the judges, and other maneuvers in the flight. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>The&nbsp;above criteria are listed in order of importance; however, all of them must be met for a maneuver to be rated perfect. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>Bob Kane <a href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> J N Hiller &lt;<a href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>&gt;<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion &lt;<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012 3:51 AM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div id=yiv458482347><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>I would have thought positioning rated a higher precision aerobatics. Smoothness and gracefulness is polish.</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Jim</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> <a href="mailto:[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a><b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net">tocdon@netscape.net</a><br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 30, 2012 6:06 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>This will keep the list going (and the discussions too).&nbsp; I recall Michael Ramel clearly discussing the future of the rules during the judges training at the World Championships at Muncie.&nbsp; This was&nbsp;relating to smoothness and gracefulness being directly related to constant speed.&nbsp; The following reflects what he discussed, as cited on page 35, and effect the way a score is awarded:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Geometry:&nbsp; 50%</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Smoothness and Gracefulness: 25%</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Position of maneuver: 12.5%</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Size of maneuver: 12.5%</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Proportion of the maneuver outside the (box) in addition to above.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The specific, objective criteria used to judge smoothness and gracefulness includes, &quot;maintaining constant speed throughout various maneuver components, like climbing and decending sections...&quot;</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Also the sentence about radii being very loose or&nbsp;very tight, even if&nbsp;equal size&nbsp;within a maneuver,&nbsp;are grounds for downgrade of smoothness and gracefulness.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Cheers,</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Don</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists..nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></body></html>