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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Mark,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>While I follow your line of thinking…….and certainly agree that the perceived geometry is what gets scored. However, consider –<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>A square loop with half rolls is given a 9 because 1 roll was off by 15 degrees. No downgrades were noted for position, size, s+g, and the maneuver did not exceed the box.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>A geometrically perfect square loop is given an 8 because it was deemed to lack sufficient s+g. Exactly why were the two points deducted? Who knows. Might have been the artistic opportunity missed when the pilot didn’t nicely frame a cumulus cloud within the loop….might have been sound of the airplane wasn’t quite right….might have been the color contrast on white clouds was too bold. Or…it could have been the judge and pilot have different opinions on what the ideal radius or roll rate is…BUT….a style allowance has always been in the rules…specific styles are not supposed to be rewarded or downgraded.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Go fast, turn left……maybe more objective…but….do you think some pilots get a little more leniency on cut calls? </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> Still a judgement being made by a ……well……judge.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Atwood<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012 10:49 AM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Dave, the answer, by your own math, is that a geometrically perfect maneuver can't be beaten purely by other criteria. With geometry making up 50% of the score, no amount of smoothness can be valued MORE than precision. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I could also argue that a geometrically "perfect" maneuver would always have at least some level of gracefulness based on that perfect geometry. They're not completely independent. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Unfortunately S&G is completely subjective, and as analytical people, we're not too keen on subjectivity. But that's the nature of the sport. It's perceived precision, not measured. Vertical lines at the end of the box don't need to BE vertical, they need to LOOK vertical, etc. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If we want purely objective scoring... look to racing. Go fast, bank left, pull. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Mark Atwood</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> President</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 </span><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> Fax: 440.684.3102</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1351F3'><a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a> </span><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1351F3'><a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Jan 31, 2012, at 10:37 AM, <a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>There has never been guidance for s+g downgrades in AMA or FAI.....which is why I have always advocated s+g should be eliminated from the judging criteria. Of course if I am mistaken about the goal of pattern being precision aerobatics, then maybe s+g should be the only criteria.<br><br>I've never gotten an answer to this question. How can a geometrically perfect maneuver be outscored by a geometrically flawed maneuver? Of course with the new FAI scoring.....it would seem that geometrically perfect maneuver might only be scored a 5.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Dave<br><br>Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!<o:p></o:p></p><div id="htc_header"><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>----- Reply message -----<br>From: "Ronald Van Putte" <<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>><br>Date: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 09:49<br>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules<br>To: "General pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>After thinking about this further, I wonder how the change in ranking affects anything. Positioning has specific downgrades (2 point downgrade for each 1/4 of the maneuver off center). However, I am unaware of any specific downgrades for smoothness and gracefulness.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Ron Van Putte<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Begin forwarded message:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Ronald Van Putte <<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Date: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>January 31, 2012 8:24:56 AM CST</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>To: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Reply-To: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>That's interesting. I know #2. and #3. were in reverse order before. I don't remember a rules change vote on this.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Ron Van Putte<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Jan 31, 2012, at 8:19 AM, Bob Kane wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>FWIW, this is identical to to the ranking in the AMA Competition regulations:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>From the current AMA document (RCA-12):<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>1.</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> Precision of the maneuver.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>2.</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> Smoothness and gracefulness of the maneuver. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>3.</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> Positioning or display of the maneuver.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>4. </span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Size or dimensions of the maneuver relative to the maneuvering area, distance from the judges, and other maneuvers in the flight. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>The above criteria are listed in order of importance; however, all of them must be met for a maneuver to be rated perfect. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>Bob Kane <a href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> J N Hiller <<a href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>><br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012 3:51 AM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id=yiv458482347><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>I would have thought positioning rated a higher precision aerobatics. Smoothness and gracefulness is polish.</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Jim</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'> </span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> <a href="mailto:[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a><b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net">tocdon@netscape.net</a><br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 30, 2012 6:06 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>This will keep the list going (and the discussions too). I recall Michael Ramel clearly discussing the future of the rules during the judges training at the World Championships at Muncie. This was relating to smoothness and gracefulness being directly related to constant speed. The following reflects what he discussed, as cited on page 35, and effect the way a score is awarded:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Geometry: 50%</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Smoothness and Gracefulness: 25%</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Position of maneuver: 12.5%</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Size of maneuver: 12.5%</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Proportion of the maneuver outside the (box) in addition to above.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The specific, objective criteria used to judge smoothness and gracefulness includes, "maintaining constant speed throughout various maneuver components, like climbing and decending sections..."</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Also the sentence about radii being very loose or very tight, even if equal size within a maneuver, are grounds for downgrade of smoothness and gracefulness.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Cheers,</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Don</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists..nsrca.org</a><br><a 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