<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dave, the answer, by your own math, is that a geometrically perfect maneuver can't be beaten purely by other criteria. With geometry making up 50% of the score, no amount of smoothness can be valued MORE than precision. <div><br></div><div>I could also argue that a geometrically "perfect" maneuver would always have at least some level of gracefulness based on that perfect geometry. They're not completely independent. </div><div><br></div><div>Unfortunately S&G is completely subjective, and as analytical people, we're not too keen on subjectivity. But that's the nature of the sport. It's perceived precision, not measured. Vertical lines at the end of the box don't need to BE vertical, they need to LOOK vertical, etc. </div><div><br></div><div>If we want purely objective scoring... look to racing. Go fast, bank left, pull. </div><div><br></div><div><br><div>
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<br><div><div>On Jan 31, 2012, at 10:37 AM, <a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br>There has never been guidance for s+g downgrades in AMA or FAI.....which is why I have always advocated s+g should be eliminated from the judging criteria. Of course if I am mistaken about the goal of pattern being precision aerobatics, then maybe s+g should be the only criteria.<br><br>I've never gotten an answer to this question. How can a geometrically perfect maneuver be outscored by a geometrically flawed maneuver? Of course with the new FAI scoring.....it would seem that geometrically perfect maneuver might only be scored a 5.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Dave<br><br>Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!<br><br><div id="htc_header" style="">----- Reply message -----<br>From: "Ronald Van Putte" <<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>><br>Date: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 09:49<br>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules<br>To: "General pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br><br></div>After thinking about this further, I wonder how the change in ranking affects anything. Positioning has specific downgrades (2 point downgrade for each 1/4 of the maneuver off center). However, I am unaware of any specific downgrades for smoothness and gracefulness.<div><br></div><div>Ron Van Putte<br><div><br><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">Ronald Van Putte <<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">January 31, 2012 8:24:56 AM CST<br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><b>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</b><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Reply-To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br></span></div><br><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">That's interesting. I know #2. and #3. were in reverse order before. I don't remember a rules change vote on this.<div><br></div><div>Ron Van Putte</div><div><br><div><div>On Jan 31, 2012, at 8:19 AM, Bob Kane wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">FWIW, this is identical to to the ranking in the AMA Competition regulations:</span></div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto"></span> </div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">From the current AMA document (RCA-12):</span></div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto"> </span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; RIGHT: auto; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class="MsoNormal"><b style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">1.</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Precision of the maneuver.<!--?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /--><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">2.</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Smoothness and gracefulness of the maneuver. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">3.</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Positioning or display of the maneuver.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; RIGHT: auto; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">4. </span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Size or dimensions of the maneuver relative to the maneuvering area, distance from the judges, and other maneuvers in the flight. </span></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; RIGHT: auto; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span> </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; RIGHT: auto; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The above criteria are listed in order of importance; however, all of them must be met for a maneuver to be rated perfect. <var id="yui-ie-cursor"></var></span></div>
<div></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bob Kane <a href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><br></div>
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<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class="hr" contenteditable="false" readonly="true"></div><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b> J N Hiller <<a href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> <br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012 3:51 AM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules<br></font></div><br>
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<div class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><span class="yiv458482347EmailStyle15"><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I would have thought positioning rated a higher precision aerobatics. Smoothness and gracefulness is polish.</span></font></span></div>
<div class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><span class="yiv458482347EmailStyle15"><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Jim</span></font></span></div>
<div class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><span class="yiv458482347EmailStyle15"><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></span></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original Message-----<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </span></b><a href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net">tocdon@netscape.net</a><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Monday, January 30, 2012 6:06 PM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules</span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">This will keep the list going (and the discussions too). I recall Michael Ramel clearly discussing the future of the rules during the judges training at the World Championships at Muncie. This was relating to smoothness and gracefulness being directly related to constant speed. The following reflects what he discussed, as cited on page 35, and effect the way a score is awarded:</span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Geometry: 50%</span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Smoothness and Gracefulness: 25%</span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Position of maneuver: 12.5%</span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Size of maneuver: 12.5%</span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Proportion of the maneuver outside the (box) in addition to above.</span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The specific, objective criteria used to judge smoothness and gracefulness includes, "maintaining constant speed throughout various maneuver components, like climbing and decending sections..."</span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Also the sentence about radii being very loose or very tight, even if equal size within a maneuver, are grounds for downgrade of smoothness and gracefulness.</span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cheers,</span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Don</span></font></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class="yiv458482347MsoNormal"><font color="black" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></div></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" ymailto="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists..nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br><br></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
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