<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Hi Dave,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">I appreciate very much your respond. Probably I need to explain a little more. I think that "adopt" was not the best way to describe it without a little more explanation. We have to agree that in Masters we have been using the same maneuvers that were used in the past P schedules as long as the maneuver does not have rolling circles. For example, it won't be a surprise that the reverse spin is going to be present in the next Master schedule. The idea here is to take the same format that FAI is using now for A and P schedules to design the Advance and Master AMA schedules. Why not to use the same backbones and make the modifications we need? For example, in the A-12 probably the only maneuver that does not belong to Advance is the triangle with roll from inverted to inverted so let's just take out the roll. Probably the Cuban with full rolls does not belong to Advance. Just replace the full roll with something else. For the Master I will say that almost we could use the exact same P-13 schedule. I know many here will say not to the Cuban 8 with integrated rolls. Well just replace the rolls with other element. However, I think is very nice maneuver for Masters since is a good progression to learn rolling circle maneuvers and judges will have a lot of fun. As you can see, if we do this we will have 3 classes with the same backbones or skeleton. I really see many advantages doing this. For sure we still need the sequence committee to make this small changes. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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<P>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>
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<B>From: </B>"Dave Lockhart" <DaveL322@comcast.net><BR><B>To: </B>"General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR><B>Sent: </B>Monday, January 30, 2012 8:02:32 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI A-12 local advanced sequence<BR><BR>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Vicente,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I actually spent some time with F3A Chairman Michael Ramel at the WC, and he showed me drafts of the “A” schedules. My understanding from the conversation with him was that the FAI “A” schedules are intended to be “relaxed” versions of the P schedules with the intended benefits of being similar to judge and fly, and of course provide a stepping stone to FAI. Michael was well aware of the stepping stone classes in the US and other countries and was not expecting the “A” schedules to be universally adopted and used in all countries. Certainly he is hoping to see the “A” schedules used by pilots training for P/F, and in countries that do not have stepping stone classes.</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">You may recall in the US in 1990-1, we had the Expert Turnaround class, which was intended to be (and was) a temporary class designed to promote turnaround style and provide a less challenging maneuver schedule. It worked quite well (as a transition), and turnaround schedules gradually followed in the rest of the AMA classes.</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I’d suggest, respectfully, that the US pattern classes evolved about 20 years in advance of the FAI “A” schedules…not that the US is better, just more able to support the stepping stone ideal…..largely due to the factors that Jerry Budd pointed out.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">As it happens, the progression difficulty of classes (as I see it ) would be AMA Advanced, FAI A, AMA Masters, and then FAI “P/F”. I’d suggest we don’t have room/participation to support more than the current 5 classes, and the stepping stone intervals would be upset IF FAI A were substituted for any of the AMA classes. I’d certainly not favor making changes to AMA Masters…..as it is very successful at the current difficulty level, and many of the Masters pilots have no desire to fly FAI (whether P, or P and F). I’d further suggest that the skill set learned/honed in AMA Masters better prepares a pilot for FAI P/F than FAI A. I certainly agree that exposure to the FAI A would increase familiarity and have benefits for judging FAI P….but….so long as FAI is flown at local contests, the exposure is there.</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Regards,</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 30, 2012 8:22 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI A-12 local advanced sequence</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Have you guys review the A-12 schedules? They already have them up to 2015. I think they are very nice and well designed. Probably was the main reason why Don asked the question. Clearly we have been copying the old P maneuvers for Masters. Why not adopt them? By the way, adopt not necessarily means that we have to do exactly the same. We can make changes if we see something very wrong. I really don't see anything wrong in these schedules. </SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Vicente "Vince" Bortone</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">From: </SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">"Budd Engineering" &lt;jerry@buddengineering.com><BR><B>To: </B>"General pattern discussion" &lt;nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR><B>Sent: </B>Monday, January 30, 2012 5:37:03 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI A-12 local advanced sequence</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Or that we have the largest combination of population base, standard of living, and most importantly the freedom to choose to do what we want with our free time...</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Jerry<BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><BR>On Jan 30, 2012, at 3:22 PM, "Del" &lt;<A href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com" target=_blank>drykert2@rochester.rr.com</A>> wrote:</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue">Maybe part of the reason we have the largest group of precision aerobatic participants is because of the AMA classes that are currently used. Much effort went into creating and tweaking these classes with the hope to make it enticing and progressive for the pilots. </SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue"> Del</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original Message ----- </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" target=_blank>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>General pattern discussion</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Monday, January 30, 2012 4:16 PM</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI A-12 local advanced sequence</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Hi Derek:</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"> </SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">OK, here are some advantages I could think of. I am sure that there are more:</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black"><BR>1. Young pilots will see more light at the end of tunnel. I am sure that they want to reach FAI-F3A levels and learn to fly the most difficult schedules as they make progress. Clearly these sequences provide more natural transition and help the new blood to get ready for the WC. I think if we adopt this schedules there will be less chance that we don't have junior pilots in the WC. I believe this is the most important single reason.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">2. Judging becomes more accurate and easier to digest for all. The backbones of sequences are very similar. Therefore, we really don't need to memorize the whole schedule and we can concentrate in the most important details when judging. </SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">3. If we adopt the schedule means that we more open in accepting what other countries are doing in pattern. I don't see why this is bad for us. It is clear that we have been copying here and there the old P schedules maneuvers when designing the new AMA Masters. Actually, I think is good for us. It is clear that we have the largest group of pattern pilots than any country in the world. If we adopt these schedules they will be more willing to do more pattern stuff around the pattern stuff we are doing. In a nutshell becomes more USA schedules since we will have a lot more pilots flying these international schedules. </SPAN></P>
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<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">I really don't see any disadvantages. </SPAN></P>
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<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Thanks,</SPAN></P>
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<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black">Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Derek Koopowitz &lt;<A href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target=_blank>derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</A>&gt;<BR>To: 'General pattern discussion' &lt;<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>&gt;<BR>Sent: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:50:11 -0000 (UTC)<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI A-12 local advanced sequence<BR>What advantages does it have over using our own home grown sequences? It is<BR>easier than Masters and does NOT allow a way for us to have sequences that<BR>build on each other as you move from class to class.<BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="mailto:[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]" target=_blank>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A> On Behalf Of Vicente<BR>"Vince" Bortone<BR>Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 5:07 AM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI A-12 local advanced sequence<BR>Why not to adopt it? This have many advantages. Probably Don wanted to<BR>infer that. <BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: Derek Koopowitz &lt;<A href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target=_blank>derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</A>&gt;<BR>To: 'General pattern discussion' &lt;<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>&gt;<BR>Sent: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:06:41 -0000 (UTC)<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI A-12 local advanced sequence Don, The<BR>intent of the A schedule is for those countries that do not have a<BR>formalized class structure much like we have in the USA. so, no, it would<BR>not be used at any contests in the US.<BR>-Derek<BR>From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="mailto:[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]" target=_blank>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A> On Behalf Of<BR><A href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net" target=_blank>tocdon@netscape.net</A><BR>Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:20 PM<BR>To: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI A-12 local advanced sequence Sorry if this<BR>has already been addresssed by the NSRCA. If not, per FAI Sporting code:<BR>"For 2012, (F3A) Schedule A-12 is recommended to be flown in local<BR>competitions so as to offer advanced pilots a suitable way to achieve skills<BR>to step up to P-13 Schedules."<BR>Are there any local U.S. contests planning to run the A-12 class? Would this<BR>be part of a new AMA class or a separate FAI class? Or is this going to be<BR>ignored since AMA already has Advanced (and Masters). <BR>Regards,<BR>Don<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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