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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>i agree, it only reinforces the bias that already exists and it
will simply be a popularity contest, which i saw a good bit of at the world
championships<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jon Lowe<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012 10:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating
to new FAIrules<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>It
would appear that the FAI is going down the same road as IMAC, with IMAC's
subjective "airspace control" factor. The smoothness and
gracefulness 25% gives a judge a non-objective way to give a downgrade of 2 to
3 points. Since there is no scoring criteria for it that I could find,
other than Michael Ramel's instructions to the judges at the WC, I'm not sure
what we do with it. I would think that his instructions would have been
protestable, if anyone had wanted to go down that path, since I'm unaware of
any official FAI rule interpretation saying, for example, that constant
speed is a part of smoothness and gracefulness. I'm sure he was just
trying to give meaning to a poorly writen criteria.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Very sorry to see the FAI going this way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Jon</span></span><span
style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Mark Atwood <atwoodm@paragon-inc.com><br>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 9:49 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_5b2c9b88-a408-42ee-84e0-ffe1626a667b">
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Dave, the answer, by your own math, is that a geometrically
perfect maneuver can't be beaten purely by other criteria. With geometry
making up 50% of the score, no amount of smoothness can be valued MORE than
precision. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>I could also argue that a geometrically "perfect"
maneuver would always have at least some level of gracefulness based on that
perfect geometry. They're not completely independent. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Unfortunately S&G is completely subjective, and as analytical
people, we're not too keen on subjectivity. But that's the nature of the
sport. It's perceived precision, not measured. Vertical
lines at the end of the box don't need to BE vertical, they need to LOOK
vertical, etc. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>If we want purely objective scoring... look to racing. Go
fast, bank left, pull. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mark Atwood</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> President</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite
130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 </span><b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> Fax:
440.684.3102</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1351F3'><a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a> </span><b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1351F3'><a
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>On Jan 31, 2012, at 10:37 AM, <a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
There has never been guidance for s+g downgrades in AMA or FAI.....which is why
I have always advocated s+g should be eliminated from the judging criteria.
Of course if I am mistaken about the goal of pattern being precision
aerobatics, then maybe s+g should be the only criteria.<br>
<br>
I've never gotten an answer to this question. How can a geometrically
perfect maneuver be outscored by a geometrically flawed maneuver? Of
course with the new FAI scoring.....it would seem that geometrically perfect
maneuver might only be scored a 5.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div id="htc_header">
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>----- Reply message -----<br>
From: "Ronald Van Putte" <<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>><br>
Date: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 09:49<br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>After thinking about this further, I wonder how the change in
ranking affects anything. Positioning has specific downgrades (2
point downgrade for each 1/4 of the maneuver off center). However, I am
unaware of any specific downgrades for smoothness and gracefulness. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Ron Van Putte<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Begin forwarded message:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Ronald Van Putte <<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Date: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>January 31, 2012 8:24:56 AM CST</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>To: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>General pattern discussion <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating
to new FAIrules</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Reply-To: </span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:
"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>General pattern discussion <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>That's interesting. I know #2. and #3. were in reverse order
before. I don't remember a rules change vote on this. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Ron Van Putte<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>On Jan 31, 2012, at 8:19 AM, Bob Kane wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>FWIW,
this is identical to to the ranking in the AMA Competition regulations:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>From the
current AMA document (RCA-12):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>1.</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> Precision
of the maneuver.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>2.</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>
Smoothness and gracefulness of the maneuver. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>3.</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>
Positioning or display of the maneuver.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>4. </span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Size or
dimensions of the maneuver relative to the maneuvering area, distance from the
judges, and other maneuvers in the flight. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>The above criteria are listed in order of importance;
however, all of them must be met for a maneuver to be rated perfect. </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>Bob Kane <a
href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> J N
Hiller <<a href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 31, 2012 3:51 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span
class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I would have thought positioning rated a higher precision
aerobatics. Smoothness and gracefulness is polish.</span></span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span
class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Jim</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span
class=yiv458482347emailstyle15><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b>On
Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:tocdon@netscape.net">tocdon@netscape.net</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 30, 2012 6:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>This will keep the list going
(and the discussions too). I recall Michael Ramel clearly discussing the
future of the rules during the judges training at the World Championships at
Muncie. This was relating to smoothness and gracefulness being
directly related to constant speed. The following reflects what he
discussed, as cited on page 35, and effect the way a score is awarded:</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Geometry: 50%</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Smoothness and Gracefulness: 25%</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Position of maneuver: 12.5%</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Size of maneuver: 12.5%</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Proportion of the maneuver
outside the (box) in addition to above.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The specific, objective criteria
used to judge smoothness and gracefulness includes, "maintaining constant
speed throughout various maneuver components, like climbing and decending
sections..."</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Also the sentence about radii
being very loose or very tight, even if equal size within a
maneuver, are grounds for downgrade of smoothness and gracefulness.</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Cheers,</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Don</span><span style='color:
black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span
style='color:black'><br>
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<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_5b2c9b88-a408-42ee-84e0-ffe1626a667b"><pre
style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre
style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre
style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><a
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre><pre
style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'><a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></tt></pre></div>
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