<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.19154">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>I still remember when it was so much
simpler when their was no size requirement and I never saw weight measurement
except for record breaking flights. Course I believe air had just
been invented the year before this recollection. People were competing
with Ugly Stiks and occasionally won.. lol </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=khoard@gmail.com href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">Keith Hoard</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 13, 2011 10:31
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS
2012</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Forgot to add the "tongue in cheek" smiley. . . .<IMG
style="MARGIN: 0pt 0.2ex; VERTICAL-ALIGN: middle"
src="cid:CCB5DDACD04A4C6FB09FAB08257A0932@ownerayn17ov1d"
goomoji="338"><BR><BR>The weight rule is, and forever will be, a point of
contention in the pattern community. . .<BR clear=all><BR>Keith
Hoard<BR>Collierville, TN<BR><A
href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 9:22 AM, Peter Vogel <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:vogel.peter@gmail.com">vogel.peter@gmail.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<DIV>Y'know, while I find this funny, if I were Arch, I'd be
offended. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The question in my mind is: if I were CD for the pattern nats
would I want my message about registration hijacked into a rules mod thread?
Having taken on a huge task for the benefit of the community, would I
consider doing it again based on the treatment I receive from the community
leading up to, and at, the event?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I'm not at a level where the nats are an option for me, but if I were,
if I'd taken the care and kept my plane within the rules (whether I agree
with them or not) would I want to be beaten by a plane that disregards one
or more rules? Emphatically, no. Even if I disagree with the
rules, I'd want to see them enforced uniformly at the nats. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I believe there is a process by which the rules are modified, shouldn't
we follow that process for rules with which we disagree?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Peter+</DIV>
<DIV>Sent from my iPhone4S</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Dec 13, 2011, at 5:57 AM, Keith Hoard <<A
href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com" target=_blank>khoard@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>All camping gear weight limits will be strictly enforced when on AMA
property, especially during the Nats. All campsites will be operated
to the letter of the rulebook during the 2012 Nats. When checking in
at AMA HQ, your gear will be measured and weighed, and we will be sending
Intermediate pilots over to your campsite to ensure strict compliance once
in the morning, at sunset, at 2 a.m., and at random times in
between.<BR><BR>Good luck.<BR><BR>Keith Hoard<BR>Collierville, TN<BR><A
href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com"
target=_blank>khoard@gmail.com</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 11:52 PM, Toby Email <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:torqueroller2000@yahoo.com"
target=_blank>torqueroller2000@yahoo.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<DIV>How many people tent camped at the last Nats? Thinking about
taking my boys to go camping. Thanks. Toby<BR><BR>Sent from my
iPhone</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Dec 12, 2011, at 4:19 PM, "Michael S. Harrison" <<A
href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net"
target=_blank>drmikedds@sbcglobal.net</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
suppose you have all heard my objections to and the pointless
nature of the existing weight limit. In the interest of
promoting the sport and the nationals I would encourage a tolerance
level of 8 ounces and weigh the planes at the beginning of the contest
and forget about it until finals day. On that day weigh the
finalists and do the contest. This unfortunately has turned into
a weight contest-not a flying contest. I have heard all the
arguments about how easy it is to make weight and it is easy to build
light aircraft…blah, blah blah., well, I disagree and the weight
rule is pointless. It does not affect anything to have a little
heavier aircraft, and in most instances is much safer to have aircraft
that are a little heavier but much stronger ,thus much safer.
<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">As
event director, you can implement mods to the rules for the above
reasons-promote the sport, safety and whatever else.
<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
very much support FAI, but they pretty much have blown us off as
far as input but they sure don’t blow off our serious financial
support. I disagree with them on this point and I have discussed
the issue with a few of them including the head of CIAM and they gave
me absolutely no compelling argument for the restrictive weight
rule.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
would encourage you minimize your manpower usage in that area. I
would never want that job.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">M2c<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Mike
<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Archie Stafford<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12,
2011 1:39 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion; General pattern
discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS
2012<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P>Ron,<U></U><U></U></P>
<P>I certainly understand there are challenges, and I'm also almost
certain that these challenges can be worked through, especially if we
maybe only end up weighing once per day or something. We are
working on the logistics now and will have a better plan after the
first of the year. The rules will be followed though and after
calibrating the scales there will not be allowances above the rules.
If an airplane is weighed and comes in heavy, we will recalibrate the
scales and verify they were correct. My gut feeling is that not
many planes will have a problem and constant recalibration will not be
necessary. We may find this is not necessarily the case,
but I would be surprised if it is as I have played with the scales I
have and after many weights of differing amounts the calibration seems
to hold true. My plan is after a flight the pilot brings the
plane back to a tent area, much like the worlds and the plane will be
weighed there. If the plane is under weight, nothing else
happens and his scores will be submitted to the score keeper. If
the plane is over weight the site director will come inside the tent
area and verify the over weight plane. Obviously in this case
the scales would be recalibrated. If the plane is still
overweight the pilot will receive a zero score for that round, but
will be allowed to fly his next round. A pilot could if he
wanted fail every weight check, and just get no scores for those
rounds. I have no doubt there will be growing pains involved,
but my hope is that if pilots know 8 months in advance that they will
be weighed that they will take the steps necessary to ensure the
aircraft is under weight prior to arriving in Muncie. I
understand logistically this may pose some problems, but we do have
quite a bit of man power available with intermediate pilots now being
part of the judging pool. Granted, they would not be able to do
this during the time they are flying, but then we would only need 3
additional people per day, which we can take from the other
classes. Having spoken to many people involved, we don't see
that there is any reason why we should not be able to do this with
adequate planning. I have verified that we have access to
the tents that were used at the worlds and one will be setup at each
location on Sunday before the pilots meeting to allow pilots to verify
the weight of their aircraft. If a pilot chooses not
to take advantage of this opportunity it is on them.
<U></U><U></U></P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">Arch<BR><BR><BR>On Mon 12/12/11 1:52 PM
, Ronald Van Putte <<A href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net"
target=_blank>vanputte@cox.net</A>> wrote:<U></U><U></U></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal>All I can say about weighing every airplane at
processing and maybe after every flight is: good luck.
<U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>John Fuqua and I did all the weighing at the at
the F3A WC last year. There were 82 contestants and many had
two airplanes. We weighed every one of them at processing.
That's a lot of weighing. Then, we weighed every
electric-powered airplane after every flight. In addition, we
weighed the glow-powered airplanes whose owners were unlucky to pull
the "wrong" ball after each flight. We worked from the prelims
through the finals and neither of us want to do it
again. <U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>We were particularly unhappy that a weight
tolerance was given, even though we provided accurate scales and
calibration weights with certification papers. What was done
appeared to be counter to F3A rules. I understand why a weight
tolerance will be given to Intermediate pilots, but hope the the
5000 gram limit will apply to all the rest of the
competitors.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Ron Van Putte<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Archie Stafford
wrote:<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR><U></U><U></U></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>Hello everyone. I
trust that everyone is anxiously awaiting a shiny new <A
title="Link this word and every other one like it in our forum to YOUR Website!"
href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; TEXT-DECORATION: none">pattern</SPAN></A>
plane or gizmo arriving at Christmas this year. I realize we are a
ways away from the NATS 2012, but its never too early to start
communicating. The official entry forms are now online at the
following link. <A
href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: #00265e">http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx</SPAN></A>
Entry forms will still be mailed to those who attended last year,
but for anyone wishing to get a jump on things and get registered
now you can download the entry form and send them in. I <A
title="Link this word and every other one like it in our forum to YOUR Website!"
href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; TEXT-DECORATION: none">plan</SPAN></A> to
start putting out monthly status updates after the first of the
year so that everyone knows where things stand. I have a great
group of people who have volunteered to help and everything is
coming together very nicely. <BR><BR>A few things worth
mentionings are that the banquet will be held the <A
title="Link this word and every other one like it in our forum to YOUR Website!"
href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; TEXT-DECORATION: none">night</SPAN></A>
before the finals this year. It will be held on site at the
banquet area at the museum and will be catered. Final catering
details have not been finalized yet. At this banquet, the Masters
and FAI finalists will be announced and flight orders drawn. This
is possible this year due to the rule change that there will no
longer be an unknowns meeting per the new FAI rules. The unknowns
will be created by the Event Director and handed out to the
finalists at the banquet. This will also allow the Intermediate
and Advanced winners to be announced in front of the entire group.
<BR><BR>Another item to be aware of is that EVERY airplane will be
weighed this year. We are still finalizing plans on the most
efficient way to do this, but be aware that every airplane will be
weighed this year and it will be after a flight. Ideally they will
be weighed after every flight, but at least once a day is my goal.
We learned a lot from how it was done at the worlds last year and
this should not be difficult to do as we have intermediate pilots
who no longer work transmitter impound that we can use as well as
some other people involved. As I said, the plans are not
finalized, but we are working very hard on them and after the
first of the year I will let everyone know what we have come up
with as a final plan. My goal is to stay in contact with everyone
so that no one can say they didn't know. <BR><BR>One other
important piece of information are the cut off deadlines. They
will be strictly enforced. They have been moved slightly closer to
the actual start of the NATS, but no entries after the final
deadline will be accepted. No exceptions. One change though is
that up until the final cut off we will be able to issue refunds.
We will not be able to issue the refund from the AMA part of the
entry fee, but the NSRCA part of the fee will be refunded.
<BR><BR>Looking forward to seeing everyone in Muncie in July.
<BR><BR>Please limit discussions to useful information regarding
this thread. Also, if you have a complaint on how things have been
done, I am more than open to listen, but please have ideas on how
to correct these issues. <BR><BR>Archie Stafford <BR>2012 Pattern
NATS ED <U></U><U></U></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P
class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A></A><A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<P
class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV><SPAN>_______________________________________________</SPAN><BR><SPAN>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list</SPAN><BR><SPAN><A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV><SPAN>_______________________________________________</SPAN><BR><SPAN>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list</SPAN><BR><SPAN><A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>