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<P>While I certainly appreciate the joking side of this and knew that it was coming. I want people to understand why I chose to do this. In previous years, it has been possible to make the finals of Masters and or FAI with an illegal airplane, and even worse, it was possible to win Intermediate or Advanced. If you choose to weigh the Intermediate and Advanced folks after the 5th or 6 round, you have no idea what they did the first four, and what if you had someone win all of those rounds, they could fail weight later and still conceivably win, or make changes to their plane to get them legal. Not that it has happened, but it was possible. By weighing Masters and FAI the night before, you truly have no idea what they could do to their planes. Once they received a sticker, no one ever verified anything again. They could change batteries or any number of other things and no one ever looked. </P>
<P>If you weigh each airplane once a day, then the possibility of this happening are greatly reduced. In this scenario, at least one round that must count for Intermediate and Advanced would have to be weighed and if they failed, and received a zero for that round, it would impact their ability to win the contest. The same goes for pilots in other classes with making the finals. Choosing to weigh at the very end does not prove that each plane was legal through the contest. I'm not saying this does or doesn't happen, I'm just saying that the possibility does exist and at the National Championships, I want to limit the number of these possibilities occuring.</P>
<P>At the pilots meeting, there is no way to know who will be making the finals. I'm sure there are people there who have no intention of winning or making the finals, but it is not fair to look down the list and make a judgement on who should, or who shouldn't be weighed and by waiting until the last day when the results are known, you have given those with a chance to win opportunities to "cheat" without being checked. Maybe for future years an option is given to pilots to sign a waiver or something saying they choose not to be weighed and they do not want their results to count. It was pointed out to me by someone that who cares if the 20th place pilot isn't weighed. Well, anyone finishing 21 or lower may very well care if they played by the rules. Granted, I am not sure this is the case, but the possibility does exist,</P>
<P>Arch<br>
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<B>On Tue 12/13/11 1:27 PM , "Ryan Smith" smaragdz@comcast.net sent:<br>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000080; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Are we going FAA definition of sunset on this one?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Keith Hoard<br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, December 13, 2011 7:57 AM<br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">All camping gear weight limits will be strictly enforced when on AMA property, especially during the Nats. All campsites will be operated to the letter of the rulebook during the 2012 Nats. When checking in at AMA HQ, your gear will be measured and weighed, and we will be sending Intermediate pilots over to your campsite to ensure strict compliance once in the morning, at sunset, at 2 a.m., and at random times in between.<br>
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Good luck.<br>
<br>
Keith Hoard<br>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Collierville</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">TN</st1:State></st1:place><br>
<A href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</A><br>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 11:52 PM, Toby Email <<A href="mailto:torqueroller2000@yahoo.com">torqueroller2000@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">How many people tent camped at the last Nats? Thinking about taking my boys to go camping. Thanks. Toby<br>
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Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"><br>
On Dec 12, 2011, at 4:19 PM, "Michael S. Harrison" <<A href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net">drmikedds@sbcglobal.net</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">I suppose you have all heard my objections to and the pointless nature of the existing weight limit. In the interest of promoting the sport and the nationals I would encourage a tolerance level of 8 ounces and weigh the planes at the beginning of the contest and forget about it until finals day. On that day weigh the finalists and do the contest. This unfortunately has turned into a weight contest-not a flying contest. I have heard all the arguments about how easy it is to make weight and it is easy to build light aircraft…blah, blah blah., well, I disagree and the weight rule is pointless. It does not affect anything to have a little heavier aircraft, and in most instances is much safer to have aircraft that are a little heavier but much stronger ,thus much safer. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">As event director, you can implement mods to the rules for the above reasons-promote the sport, safety and whatever else. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">I very much support FAI, but they pretty much have blown us off as far as input but they sure don’t blow off our serious financial support. I disagree with them on this point and I have discussed the issue with a few of them including the head of CIAM and they gave me absolutely no compelling argument for the restrictive weight rule.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">I would encourage you minimize your manpower usage in that area. I would never want that job.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Archie Stafford<br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, December 12, 2011 1:39 PM<br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion; General pattern discussion<br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Ron,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">I certainly understand there are challenges, and I'm also almost certain that these challenges can be worked through, especially if we maybe only end up weighing once per day or something. We are working on the logistics now and will have a better plan after the first of the year. The rules will be followed though and after calibrating the scales there will not be allowances above the rules. If an airplane is weighed and comes in heavy, we will recalibrate the scales and verify they were correct. My gut feeling is that not many planes will have a problem and constant recalibration will not be necessary. We may find this is not necessarily the case, but I would be surprised if it is as I have played with the scales I have and after many weights of differing amounts the calibration seems to hold true. My plan is after a flight the pilot brings the plane back to a tent area, much like the worlds and the plane will be weighed there. If the plane is under weight, nothing else happens and his scores will be submitted to the score keeper. If the plane is over weight the site director will come inside the tent area and verify the over weight plane. Obviously in this case the scales would be recalibrated. If the plane is still overweight the pilot will receive a zero score for that round, but will be allowed to fly his next round. A pilot could if he wanted fail every weight check, and just get no scores for those rounds. I have no doubt there will be growing pains involved, but my hope is that if pilots know 8 months in advance that they will be weighed that they will take the steps necessary to ensure the aircraft is under weight prior to arriving in Muncie. I understand logistically this may pose some problems, but we do have quite a bit of man power available with intermediate pilots now being part of the judging pool. Granted, they would not be able to do this during the time they are flying, but then we would only need 3 additional people per day, which we can take from the other classes. Having spoken to many people involved, we don't see that there is any reason why we should not be able to do this with adequate planning. I have verified that we have access to the tents that were used at the worlds and one will be setup at each location on Sunday before the pilots meeting to allow pilots to verify the weight of their aircraft. If a pilot chooses not to take advantage of this opportunity it is on them. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 5.0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Arch<br>
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On Mon 12/12/11 1:52 PM , Ronald Van Putte <<A href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">All I can say about weighing every airplane at processing and maybe after every flight is: good luck. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">John Fuqua and I did all the weighing at the at the F3A WC last year. There were 82 contestants and many had two airplanes. We weighed every one of them at processing. That's a lot of weighing. Then, we weighed every electric-powered airplane after every flight. In addition, we weighed the glow-powered airplanes whose owners were unlucky to pull the "wrong" ball after each flight. We worked from the prelims through the finals and neither of us want to do it again. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">We were particularly unhappy that a weight tolerance was given, even though we provided accurate scales and calibration weights with certification papers. What was done appeared to be counter to F3A rules. I understand why a weight tolerance will be given to Intermediate pilots, but hope the the 5000 gram limit will apply to all the rest of the competitors.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Ron Van Putte<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Archie Stafford wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">Hello everyone. I trust that everyone is anxiously awaiting a shiny new <A title="Link this word and every other one like it in our forum to YOUR Website!" href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016" target=_blank><SPAN style="COLOR: #000000; TEXT-DECORATION: none">pattern</SPAN></A> plane or gizmo arriving at Christmas this year. I realize we are a ways away from the NATS 2012, but its never too early to start communicating. The official entry forms are now online at the following link. <A href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx" target=_blank><SPAN style="COLOR: #00265e">http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx</SPAN></A> Entry forms will still be mailed to those who attended last year, but for anyone wishing to get a jump on things and get registered now you can download the entry form and send them in. I <A title="Link this word and every other one like it in our forum to YOUR Website!" href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582" target=_blank><SPAN style="COLOR: #000000; TEXT-DECORATION: none">plan</SPAN></A> to start putting out monthly status updates after the first of the year so that everyone knows where things stand. I have a great group of people who have volunteered to help and everything is coming together very nicely. <br>
<br>
A few things worth mentionings are that the banquet will be held the <A title="Link this word and every other one like it in our forum to YOUR Website!" href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133" target=_blank><SPAN style="COLOR: #000000; TEXT-DECORATION: none">night</SPAN></A> before the finals this year. It will be held on site at the banquet area at the museum and will be catered. Final catering details have not been finalized yet. At this banquet, the Masters and FAI finalists will be announced and flight orders drawn. This is possible this year due to the rule change that there will no longer be an unknowns meeting per the new FAI rules. The unknowns will be created by the Event Director and handed out to the finalists at the banquet. This will also allow the Intermediate and Advanced winners to be announced in front of the entire group. <br>
<br>
Another item to be aware of is that EVERY airplane will be weighed this year. We are still finalizing plans on the most efficient way to do this, but be aware that every airplane will be weighed this year and it will be after a flight. Ideally they will be weighed after every flight, but at least once a day is my goal. We learned a lot from how it was done at the worlds last year and this should not be difficult to do as we have intermediate pilots who no longer work transmitter impound that we can use as well as some other people involved. As I said, the plans are not finalized, but we are working very hard on them and after the first of the year I will let everyone know what we have come up with as a final plan. My goal is to stay in contact with everyone so that no one can say they didn't know. <br>
<br>
One other important piece of information are the cut off deadlines. They will be strictly enforced. They have been moved slightly closer to the actual start of the NATS, but no entries after the final deadline will be accepted. No exceptions. One change though is that up until the final cut off we will be able to issue refunds. We will not be able to issue the refund from the AMA part of the entry fee, but the NSRCA part of the fee will be refunded. <br>
<br>
Looking forward to seeing everyone in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Muncie</st1:place></st1:City> in July. <br>
<br>
Please limit discussions to useful information regarding this thread. Also, if you have a complaint on how things have been done, I am more than open to listen, but please have ideas on how to correct these issues. <br>
<br>
Archie Stafford <br>
2012 Pattern NATS ED <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
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