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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wow, all this complaining about having to weigh-in
reminds me of when I was on active duty! ;)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rob</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=johnfuqua@embarqmail.com href="mailto:johnfuqua@embarqmail.com">John
Fuqua</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12, 2011 6:31
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS
2012</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Lets
also resurrect no scored takeoffs and landings while we are at it
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Dave
Burton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12, 2011 5:57 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS
2012<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
guess it’s officially Winter now! Pattern weight rule discussion has started.
Lol.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dave Burton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12, 2011 6:20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Arch,
I got planes already. Buying another one that is “easier” to make weight will
cost several times the $400.00 it would cost in parts to reduce the weight of
the planes I have.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I’m
with Mike on this one, The rule just makes no sense. I very much disagree with
you, Dave L. and others that rule changes allowing larger planes and engines
were the cause of the cost increases. It was the change to turn around
sequences that was the root cause. The TA sequences tasks demanded the
airplane changes we’ve seen. The 5 Kg weight rule is just a left over
airplane size limiting deal from the 1930’s and serves no purpose today.
The 2 M rule is the size limiting rule today.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">BTY,
you could chose to run the contest the way it has been done in the past. Weigh
and measure only the finalist. Let the rest of us who won’t be in the finals
go with slightly overweight planes if we want, have fun, compete the best we
can, provide manpower to help judge, attend the various social outings,
and minimize the out of pocket cost for us.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Archie Stafford<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12, 2011
7:02 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dave,<BR><BR>I
understand and I am sorry you feel that way. I do have to disagree though.
I put together the Extreme Flight Vanquish with everything including a
set of batteries for less than 1400 dollars and it comfortably made weight.
There are planes out there that make weight with no problems without
spending a fortune. I also didn’t have any issues making weight with my
Wind S Pro, and that was with not doing anything special. I think there
are planes available that will easily make weight. My plan though as I
told you earlier this year that we are going to run a rule book contest.
I want to make sure to give everyone ample time to get prepared and have
time to weigh their planes. For those who are not worried about where
they place, they still have the option to fly. Their rounds will just be
zeroed when they do not pass weight. This does not exclude anyone from
flying.<BR><BR>Archie<BR><BR><BR>On 12/12/11 4:54 PM, "Dave Burton" <<A
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</A>>
wrote:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Ditto,
my thoughts too! <BR>Yes, It’s easy to make weight – just spend more money!
Spending another $400.00 to buy the light weight stuff to lose the 4 oz.
I need on my plane means the cost of going to the NATS is more than what it’s
worth. I probably won’t be there so weighing every flight won’t affect
me.<BR>Dave<BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Michael S. Harrison<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12,
2011 4:19 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:astafford@md.metrocast.net">astafford@md.metrocast.net</A>;
'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS
2012<BR></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
suppose you have all heard my objections to and the pointless nature of
the existing weight limit. In the interest of promoting the sport and
the nationals I would encourage a tolerance level of 8 ounces and weigh the
planes at the beginning of the contest and forget about it until finals day.
On that day weigh the finalists and do the contest. This
unfortunately has turned into a weight contest-not a flying contest. I
have heard all the arguments about how easy it is to make weight and it is
easy to build light aircraft…blah, blah blah., well, I disagree and the
weight rule is pointless. It does not affect anything to have a little
heavier aircraft, and in most instances is much safer to have aircraft that
are a little heavier but much stronger ,thus much safer.
<BR> <BR>As event director, you can implement mods to the rules for
the above reasons-promote the sport, safety and whatever else.
<BR> <BR>I very much support FAI, but they pretty much have
blown us off as far as input but they sure don’t blow off our serious
financial support. I disagree with them on this point and I have
discussed the issue with a few of them including the head of CIAM and they
gave me absolutely no compelling argument for the restrictive weight
rule.<BR> <BR>I would encourage you minimize your manpower usage in that
area. I would never want that job.<BR>M2c<BR>Mike
<BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Archie Stafford<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12, 2011
1:39 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion; General pattern
discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS
2012<BR></SPAN><BR>Ron,<BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN>I
certainly understand there are challenges, and I'm also almost certain that
these challenges can be worked through, especially if we maybe only end up
weighing once per day or something. We are working on the logistics now
and will have a better plan after the first of the year. The rules will
be followed though and after calibrating the scales there will not be
allowances above the rules. If an airplane is weighed and comes in heavy, we
will recalibrate the scales and verify they were correct. My gut feeling
is that not many planes will have a problem and constant recalibration will
not be necessary. We may find this is not necessarily the case,
but I would be surprised if it is as I have played with the scales I have and
after many weights of differing amounts the calibration seems to hold true.
My plan is after a flight the pilot brings the plane back to a tent
area, much like the worlds and the plane will be weighed there. If the
plane is under weight, nothing else happens and his scores will be submitted
to the score keeper. If the plane is over weight the site director will
come inside the tent area and verify the over weight plane. Obviously in
this case the scales would be recalibrated. If the plane is still
overweight the pilot will receive a zero score for that round, but will be
allowed to fly his next round. A pilot could if he wanted fail every
weight check, and just get no scores for those rounds. I have no doubt
there will be growing pains involved, but my hope is that if pilots know 8
months in advance that they will be weighed that they will take the steps
necessary to ensure the aircraft is under weight prior to arriving in Muncie.
I understand logistically this may pose some problems, but we do have
quite a bit of man power available with intermediate pilots now being part of
the judging pool. Granted, they would not be able to do this during the
time they are flying, but then we would only need 3 additional people per day,
which we can take from the other classes. Having spoken to many people
involved, we don't see that there is any reason why we should not be able to
do this with adequate planning. I have verified that we have access to
the tents that were used at the worlds and one will be setup at each location
on Sunday before the pilots meeting to allow pilots to verify the weight of
their aircraft. If a pilot chooses not to take advantage of this
opportunity it is on them. <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN>Arch<BR><BR><BR>On
Mon 12/12/11 1:52 PM , Ronald Van Putte <<A
href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN>All I
can say about weighing every airplane at processing and maybe after every
flight is: good luck. <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN>John
Fuqua and I did all the weighing at the at the F3A WC last year. There
were 82 contestants and many had two airplanes. We weighed every one of
them at processing. That's a lot of weighing. Then, we weighed
every electric-powered airplane after every flight. In addition, we
weighed the glow-powered airplanes whose owners were unlucky to pull the
"wrong" ball after each flight. We worked from the prelims through the
finals and neither of us want to do it again. <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN>We
were particularly unhappy that a weight tolerance was given, even though we
provided accurate scales and calibration weights with certification papers.
What was done appeared to be counter to F3A rules. I understand
why a weight tolerance will be given to Intermediate pilots, but hope the the
5000 gram limit will apply to all the rest of the competitors.<BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN>Ron
Van Putte<BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN>On Dec
12, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Archie Stafford wrote:<BR> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">Hello everyone. I trust that
everyone is anxiously awaiting a shiny new pattern <A
href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016"><http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016></A>
plane or gizmo arriving at Christmas this year. I realize we are a ways
away from the NATS 2012, but its never too early to start communicating. The
official entry forms are now online at the following link. <SPAN
style="COLOR: #00265e"><A
href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx">http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx</A></SPAN>
<A
href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx"><http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx></A>
Entry forms will still be mailed to those who attended last year, but
for anyone wishing to get a jump on things and get registered now you can
download the entry form and send them in. I plan <A
href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582"><http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582></A>
to start putting out monthly status updates after the first of the year
so that everyone knows where things stand. I have a great group of people who
have volunteered to help and everything is coming together very nicely.
<BR><BR>A few things worth mentionings are that the banquet will be held the
night <A
href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133"><http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133></A>
before the finals this year. It will be held on site at the banquet area
at the museum and will be catered. Final catering details have not been
finalized yet. At this banquet, the Masters and FAI finalists will be
announced and flight orders drawn. This is possible this year due to the rule
change that there will no longer be an unknowns meeting per the new FAI rules.
The unknowns will be created by the Event Director and handed out to the
finalists at the banquet. This will also allow the Intermediate and Advanced
winners to be announced in front of the entire group. <BR><BR>Another item to
be aware of is that EVERY airplane will be weighed this year. We are still
finalizing plans on the most efficient way to do this, but be aware that every
airplane will be weighed this year and it will be after a flight. Ideally they
will be weighed after every flight, but at least once a day is my goal. We
learned a lot from how it was done at the worlds last year and this should not
be difficult to do as we have intermediate pilots who no longer work
transmitter impound that we can use as well as some other people involved. As
I said, the plans are not finalized, but we are working very hard on them and
after the first of the year I will let everyone know what we have come up with
as a final plan. My goal is to stay in contact with everyone so that no one
can say they didn't know. <BR><BR>One other important piece of information are
the cut off deadlines. They will be strictly enforced. They have been moved
slightly closer to the actual start of the NATS, but no entries after the
final deadline will be accepted. No exceptions. One change though is that up
until the final cut off we will be able to issue refunds. We will not be able
to issue the refund from the AMA part of the entry fee, but the NSRCA part of
the fee will be refunded. <BR><BR>Looking forward to seeing everyone in Muncie
in July. <BR><BR>Please limit discussions to useful information regarding this
thread. Also, if you have a complaint on how things have been done, I am more
than open to listen, but please have ideas on how to correct these issues.
<BR><BR>Archie Stafford <BR>2012 Pattern NATS ED
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