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<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Geeesh `` I never remember having to
weigh in when I was in the service.. but I thought we used chariots in battle
also.. <tic> </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial> </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rgc1701@earthlink.net href="mailto:rgc1701@earthlink.net">Robert
Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12, 2011 9:56
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS
2012</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Wow, all this complaining about having to
weigh-in reminds me of when I was on active duty! ;)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Rob</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=johnfuqua@embarqmail.com
href="mailto:johnfuqua@embarqmail.com">John Fuqua</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12, 2011 6:31
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS
2012</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Lets
also resurrect no scored takeoffs and landings while we are at
it
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Dave
Burton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12, 2011 5:57 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS
2012<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
guess it’s officially Winter now! Pattern weight rule discussion has
started. Lol.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dave Burton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12, 2011
6:20 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Arch,
I got planes already. Buying another one that is “easier” to make weight
will cost several times the $400.00 it would cost in parts to reduce the
weight of the planes I have.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I’m
with Mike on this one, The rule just makes no sense. I very much disagree
with you, Dave L. and others that rule changes allowing larger planes and
engines were the cause of the cost increases. It was the change to turn
around sequences that was the root cause. The TA sequences tasks demanded
the airplane changes we’ve seen. The 5 Kg weight rule is just a left
over airplane size limiting deal from the 1930’s and serves no purpose
today. The 2 M rule is the size limiting rule today.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">BTY,
you could chose to run the contest the way it has been done in the past.
Weigh and measure only the finalist. Let the rest of us who won’t be in the
finals go with slightly overweight planes if we want, have fun, compete the
best we can, provide manpower to help judge, attend the various social
outings, and minimize the out of pocket cost for
us.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Archie Stafford<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12,
2011 7:02 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave,<BR><BR>I
understand and I am sorry you feel that way. I do have to disagree though.
I put together the Extreme Flight Vanquish with everything including a
set of batteries for less than 1400 dollars and it comfortably made weight.
There are planes out there that make weight with no problems without
spending a fortune. I also didn’t have any issues making weight with
my Wind S Pro, and that was with not doing anything special. I think
there are planes available that will easily make weight. My plan
though as I told you earlier this year that we are going to run a rule book
contest. I want to make sure to give everyone ample time to get
prepared and have time to weigh their planes. For those who are not
worried about where they place, they still have the option to fly.
Their rounds will just be zeroed when they do not pass weight.
This does not exclude anyone from flying.<BR><BR>Archie<BR><BR><BR>On
12/12/11 4:54 PM, "Dave Burton" <<A
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</A>>
wrote:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Ditto,
my thoughts too! <BR>Yes, It’s easy to make weight – just spend more money!
Spending another $400.00 to buy the light weight stuff to lose the 4
oz. I need on my plane means the cost of going to the NATS is more than what
it’s worth. I probably won’t be there so weighing every flight won’t
affect me.<BR>Dave<BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Michael S. Harrison<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12,
2011 4:19 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:astafford@md.metrocast.net">astafford@md.metrocast.net</A>;
'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS
2012<BR></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
suppose you have all heard my objections to and the pointless nature
of the existing weight limit. In the interest of promoting the sport
and the nationals I would encourage a tolerance level of 8 ounces and weigh
the planes at the beginning of the contest and forget about it until finals
day. On that day weigh the finalists and do the contest. This
unfortunately has turned into a weight contest-not a flying contest. I
have heard all the arguments about how easy it is to make weight and it is
easy to build light aircraft…blah, blah blah., well, I disagree and
the weight rule is pointless. It does not affect anything to have a
little heavier aircraft, and in most instances is much safer to have
aircraft that are a little heavier but much stronger ,thus much safer.
<BR> <BR>As event director, you can implement mods to the rules
for the above reasons-promote the sport, safety and whatever else.
<BR> <BR>I very much support FAI, but they pretty much have
blown us off as far as input but they sure don’t blow off our serious
financial support. I disagree with them on this point and I have
discussed the issue with a few of them including the head of CIAM and they
gave me absolutely no compelling argument for the restrictive weight
rule.<BR> <BR>I would encourage you minimize your manpower usage in
that area. I would never want that job.<BR>M2c<BR>Mike
<BR> <BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Archie Stafford<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12,
2011 1:39 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion; General pattern
discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS
2012<BR></SPAN><BR>Ron,<BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN>I
certainly understand there are challenges, and I'm also almost certain that
these challenges can be worked through, especially if we maybe only end up
weighing once per day or something. We are working on the logistics
now and will have a better plan after the first of the year. The rules
will be followed though and after calibrating the scales there will not be
allowances above the rules. If an airplane is weighed and comes in heavy, we
will recalibrate the scales and verify they were correct. My gut
feeling is that not many planes will have a problem and constant
recalibration will not be necessary. We may find this is not
necessarily the case, but I would be surprised if it is as I have played
with the scales I have and after many weights of differing amounts the
calibration seems to hold true. My plan is after a flight the pilot
brings the plane back to a tent area, much like the worlds and the plane
will be weighed there. If the plane is under weight, nothing else
happens and his scores will be submitted to the score keeper. If the
plane is over weight the site director will come inside the tent area and
verify the over weight plane. Obviously in this case the scales would
be recalibrated. If the plane is still overweight the pilot will
receive a zero score for that round, but will be allowed to fly his next
round. A pilot could if he wanted fail every weight check, and just
get no scores for those rounds. I have no doubt there will be growing
pains involved, but my hope is that if pilots know 8 months in advance that
they will be weighed that they will take the steps necessary to ensure the
aircraft is under weight prior to arriving in Muncie. I understand
logistically this may pose some problems, but we do have quite a bit of man
power available with intermediate pilots now being part of the judging pool.
Granted, they would not be able to do this during the time they are
flying, but then we would only need 3 additional people per day, which we
can take from the other classes. Having spoken to many people
involved, we don't see that there is any reason why we should not be able to
do this with adequate planning. I have verified that we have access to
the tents that were used at the worlds and one will be setup at each
location on Sunday before the pilots meeting to allow pilots to verify the
weight of their aircraft. If a pilot chooses not to take
advantage of this opportunity it is on them. <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN>Arch<BR><BR><BR>On
Mon 12/12/11 1:52 PM , Ronald Van Putte <<A
href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN>All
I can say about weighing every airplane at processing and maybe after every
flight is: good luck. <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN>John
Fuqua and I did all the weighing at the at the F3A WC last year. There
were 82 contestants and many had two airplanes. We weighed every one
of them at processing. That's a lot of weighing. Then, we
weighed every electric-powered airplane after every flight. In
addition, we weighed the glow-powered airplanes whose owners were unlucky to
pull the "wrong" ball after each flight. We worked from the prelims
through the finals and neither of us want to do it again. <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN>We
were particularly unhappy that a weight tolerance was given, even though we
provided accurate scales and calibration weights with certification papers.
What was done appeared to be counter to F3A rules. I understand
why a weight tolerance will be given to Intermediate pilots, but hope the
the 5000 gram limit will apply to all the rest of the competitors.<BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN>Ron
Van Putte<BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN>On
Dec 12, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Archie Stafford wrote:<BR> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>Hello everyone. I trust that
everyone is anxiously awaiting a shiny new pattern <A
href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016"><http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016></A>
plane or gizmo arriving at Christmas this year. I realize we are a
ways away from the NATS 2012, but its never too early to start
communicating. The official entry forms are now online at the following
link. <SPAN style="COLOR: #00265e"><A
href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx">http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx</A></SPAN>
<A
href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx"><http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx></A>
Entry forms will still be mailed to those who attended last year, but
for anyone wishing to get a jump on things and get registered now you can
download the entry form and send them in. I plan <A
href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582"><http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582></A>
to start putting out monthly status updates after the first of the
year so that everyone knows where things stand. I have a great group of
people who have volunteered to help and everything is coming together very
nicely. <BR><BR>A few things worth mentionings are that the banquet will be
held the night <A
href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133"><http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133></A>
before the finals this year. It will be held on site at the banquet
area at the museum and will be catered. Final catering details have not been
finalized yet. At this banquet, the Masters and FAI finalists will be
announced and flight orders drawn. This is possible this year due to the
rule change that there will no longer be an unknowns meeting per the new FAI
rules. The unknowns will be created by the Event Director and handed out to
the finalists at the banquet. This will also allow the Intermediate and
Advanced winners to be announced in front of the entire group.
<BR><BR>Another item to be aware of is that EVERY airplane will be weighed
this year. We are still finalizing plans on the most efficient way to do
this, but be aware that every airplane will be weighed this year and it will
be after a flight. Ideally they will be weighed after every flight, but at
least once a day is my goal. We learned a lot from how it was done at the
worlds last year and this should not be difficult to do as we have
intermediate pilots who no longer work transmitter impound that we can use
as well as some other people involved. As I said, the plans are not
finalized, but we are working very hard on them and after the first of the
year I will let everyone know what we have come up with as a final plan. My
goal is to stay in contact with everyone so that no one can say they didn't
know. <BR><BR>One other important piece of information are the cut off
deadlines. They will be strictly enforced. They have been moved slightly
closer to the actual start of the NATS, but no entries after the final
deadline will be accepted. No exceptions. One change though is that up until
the final cut off we will be able to issue refunds. We will not be able to
issue the refund from the AMA part of the entry fee, but the NSRCA part of
the fee will be refunded. <BR><BR>Looking forward to seeing everyone in
Muncie in July. <BR><BR>Please limit discussions to useful information
regarding this thread. Also, if you have a complaint on how things have been
done, I am more than open to listen, but please have ideas on how to correct
these issues. <BR><BR>Archie Stafford <BR>2012 Pattern NATS ED
<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
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<BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR> <SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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