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<P>Derek,</P>
<P>Much of this will depend on the number of entrants. With a huge number of entrants it becomes very difficult to do this in the prelims. </P>
<P>One thing that I have discussed with Earl Haury regarding finals judges. My plan is to put together 4 panels of judges for Masters and FAI. In previous years, each panel of judges judged their given class twice. This does not allow any kind of equal exposure. This year, the plan is to have a total of 4 sets of judges, and each set will judge one round of Masters and one round of FAI. This will allow both classes to see 4 completely different sets of judges in the finals. With Masters usually running ahead of FAI we will have to work out the schedule for these panels, but I certainly believe it can be done fairly effectively with planning. This should also encourage more people to be willing to judge as one of the complaints with judging Masters is that they miss half of the FAI finals. With this scenario, no one would miss more than one round of FAI.</P>
<P>Arch<br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue 12/13/11 1:02 PM , Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com> wrote:<br>
<br>
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<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">I'm in total agreement with Archie on the application of the rules across all the classes. I also hope that Archie will run F3A according to the FAI rules as well - 4 rounds of equal exposure followed by a semi-finals and then a finals. We have not had equal exposure at the Nats for a number of years in F3A and this should be applied in a Team Selection year in order to make it equitable for ALL F3A pilots<br>
<br>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Michael S. Harrison <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="javascript:top.opencompose('drmikedds@sbcglobal.net','','','')">drmikedds@sbcglobal.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<br>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Archie Stafford [mailto:<A href="javascript:top.opencompose('astafford@md.metrocast.net','','','')" target=_blank>astafford@md.metrocast.net</A>] <br>
<B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:55 AM<br>
<B>To:</B> Michael S. Harrison<br>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012<SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal>Mike<SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal>Feel free to post it. However none of this discussion bothers me. As ED my job is to enforce the rules, many of which were not last year for various reasons. I do not remember if we have ever run a NATS as close to tge rule book as possible. This year I plan to change that. Maybe doing so will be a catalyst to change some of the rules. Only time will tell. <SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal>Arch<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone<SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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On Dec 13, 2011, at 10:44 AM, "Michael S. Harrison" <<A href="javascript:top.opencompose('drmikedds@sbcglobal.net','','','')" target=_blank>drmikedds@sbcglobal.net</A>> wrote:<SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Arch,</SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I would like to post this or would you post this on the nsrca list? I think it leaves the discussion up in the air regarding yours and my thoughts.</SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Thanks</SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Mike </SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Michael S. Harrison [mailto:<A href="javascript:top.opencompose('drmikedds@sbcglobal.net','','','')" target=_blank>drmikedds@sbcglobal.net</A>] <br>
<B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12, 2011 4:17 PM<br>
<B>To:</B> 'Archie Stafford'<br>
<B>Subject:</B> RE: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012</SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Archie,</SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Very good response and I agree with all you have said. My frustrations with the weight rule is that those in rules making capacity are in my opinion, displaying little or no vision or have emotional bias to stop them from making objective clear forward thinking decisions. Of course the nats is not the place to make those changes but sometimes extreme measures should occur. I agree the flyers need to have the courtesy and presence of mind to enter at a reasonable period. </SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I am on board with you 100% and I applaud you for taking on the task. </SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Thanks</SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Mike </SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Archie Stafford [mailto:<A href="javascript:top.opencompose('astafford@md.metrocast.net','','','')" target=_blank>astafford@md.metrocast.net</A>] <br>
<B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12, 2011 4:56 PM<br>
<B>To:</B> Michael S. Harrison; 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012</SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Mike,<br>
<br>
As you can imagine I have heard these objections and while I certainly understand and appreciate them, I disagree. I feel that this is a National Championship and as such the rules should be followed as closely to the letter as possible. This also makes it much easier regarding protests and such. Regardless of the opinions on the weight rule, it is in the rule book and I want to follow the rulebook as closely as possible. I believe in the past that the biggest obstacle for enforcing this rule was manpower. I don’t believe this is the case any longer as we now have the Intermediate pilots who can do this job, since they are not judging. My goal this year is to run this contest as close to the rulebook as possible with as few exceptions as possible. I don’t expect everyone to agree with every decision, but I believe that as it is the National Championships, it is the one contest a year that as many rules as possible can be followed. I plan to publish any deviations from the rules, if there are any after the first of the year once I have all of the logistics worked out. It is possible that enforcing the rules may change the mind of enough people that they decide to remove the weight rule, then so be it, but as long as it is a current rule I plan to enforce it. Other disciplines have issues like this as well such as the builder of the model rule in control line stunt. Yet, at the NATS it is enforced. <br>
<br>
Regarding late entries. The dates are now set in stone and will not be changed. These were established at the NATS planning meeting in September. The initial entry date has been pushed up until 1 month prior to the start of the contest and the late deadline is set at 2 weeks prior. After discussing this with Rusty, Dave Guerin, and others this makes the most sense from a logistical stand point for the ED and other who are trying to get things setup. The AMA bases the number of plaques they will supply on the number of entries as of a certain date (usually 1 month out). The NSRCA could pay for additional plaques if they wanted, but I don’t see the reason in this additional cost. I believe that while a few may have schedule changes, the vast majority of pilots have the dates reserved well in advance. Some may even have already reserved their rooms. Setting a hard cut off of two weeks out in my opinion is not an unreasonable and gives the ED and others a much better chance of planning for things such as the banquet, pilots meeting BBQ, flight order and others. I’m sure there will be a few who may still be no shows, but it is much easier to remove a few pilots than it is to add more in. What I learned from my discussions from previous ED’s and people from other disciplines is that the later you allow people to register, the more that will register late. When people are spending several hundred, if not thousands of dollars to attend the NATS, a $100.00 or more late fee will not deter them from registering late. In 2008 when I was unable to attend the NATS due to being stuck in Iraq for work I had already registered for the NATS. I considered my entry fee just a donation to the AMA/NSRCA and realized that I would save much more than that by not attending. My goal is to have as much planning and such done before I leave for Muncie, so that when I arrive, as much preparation work is complete, so I can focus 100% on running the event rather than trying to find places for a few late entries. I am sure that there will be growing pains and headaches once I get to Muncie, but any that can be eliminated ahead of time will do nothing but benefit the event as a whole. From talking to other ED’s from various disciplines, one of their biggest headaches is the number of people that register late. Most would love to have a policy in place as the pattern NATS have done for setting late deadlines, but they have faced many obstacles getting their SIG’s to agree to this. As it has been past policy in pattern, it is easy to leave it alone. It would also be easy to eliminate, but from these discussions I do not believe it is the right thing to do. There were several things I learned at the NATS planning meeting and this was one of them. The key this year is that these deadlines will be strictly enforced. I would encourage those who are on the fence about attending to go ahead and register during the early period and then we can refund the NSRCA part of your funds back to you up to 2 weeks prior to the start of the event. <br>
<br>
Archie<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/12/11 3:19 PM, "Michael S. Harrison" <<A href="javascript:top.opencompose('drmikedds@sbcglobal.net','','','')" target=_blank>drmikedds@sbcglobal.net</A>> wrote:</SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I suppose you have all heard my objections to and the pointless nature of the existing weight limit. In the interest of promoting the sport and the nationals I would encourage a tolerance level of 8 ounces and weigh the planes at the beginning of the contest and forget about it until finals day. On that day weigh the finalists and do the contest. This unfortunately has turned into a weight contest-not a flying contest. I have heard all the arguments about how easy it is to make weight and it is easy to build light aircraft…blah, blah blah., well, I disagree and the weight rule is pointless. It does not affect anything to have a little heavier aircraft, and in most instances is much safer to have aircraft that are a little heavier but much stronger ,thus much safer. <br>
<br>
As event director, you can implement mods to the rules for the above reasons-promote the sport, safety and whatever else. <br>
<br>
I very much support FAI, but they pretty much have blown us off as far as input but they sure don’t blow off our serious financial support. I disagree with them on this point and I have discussed the issue with a few of them including the head of CIAM and they gave me absolutely no compelling argument for the restrictive weight rule.<br>
<br>
I would encourage you minimize your manpower usage in that area. I would never want that job.<br>
M2c<br>
Mike <br>
<br>
</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><br>
</SPAN><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A href="javascript:top.opencompose('nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org','','','')" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="javascript:top.opencompose('nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]','','','')" target=_blank>mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A> <B>On Behalf Of </B>Archie Stafford<br>
<B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 12, 2011 1:39 PM<br>
<B>To:</B> General pattern discussion; General pattern discussion<br>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012<br>
</SPAN><br>
Ron,<br>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><br>
</SPAN>I certainly understand there are challenges, and I'm also almost certain that these challenges can be worked through, especially if we maybe only end up weighing once per day or something. We are working on the logistics now and will have a better plan after the first of the year. The rules will be followed though and after calibrating the scales there will not be allowances above the rules. If an airplane is weighed and comes in heavy, we will recalibrate the scales and verify they were correct. My gut feeling is that not many planes will have a problem and constant recalibration will not be necessary. We may find this is not necessarily the case, but I would be surprised if it is as I have played with the scales I have and after many weights of differing amounts the calibration seems to hold true. My plan is after a flight the pilot brings the plane back to a tent area, much like the worlds and the plane will be weighed there. If the plane is under weight, nothing else happens and his scores will be submitted to the score keeper. If the plane is over weight the site director will come inside the tent area and verify the over weight plane. Obviously in this case the scales would be recalibrated. If the plane is still overweight the pilot will receive a zero score for that round, but will be allowed to fly his next round. A pilot could if he wanted fail every weight check, and just get no scores for those rounds. I have no doubt there will be growing pains involved, but my hope is that if pilots know 8 months in advance that they will be weighed that they will take the steps necessary to ensure the aircraft is under weight prior to arriving in Muncie. I understand logistically this may pose some problems, but we do have quite a bit of man power available with intermediate pilots now being part of the judging pool. Granted, they would not be able to do this during the time they are flying, but then we would only need 3 additional people per day, which we can take from the other classes. Having spoken to many people involved, we don't see that there is any reason why we should not be able to do this with adequate planning. I have verified that we have access to the tents that were used at the worlds and one will be setup at each location on Sunday before the pilots meeting to allow pilots to verify the weight of their aircraft. If a pilot chooses not to take advantage of this opportunity it is on them. <br>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><br>
</SPAN>Arch<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon 12/12/11 1:52 PM , Ronald Van Putte <<A href="javascript:top.opencompose('vanputte@cox.net','','','')" target=_blank>vanputte@cox.net</A>> wrote:<SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P>
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</SPAN>All I can say about weighing every airplane at processing and maybe after every flight is: good luck. <br>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><br>
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<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><br>
</SPAN>John Fuqua and I did all the weighing at the at the F3A WC last year. There were 82 contestants and many had two airplanes. We weighed every one of them at processing. That's a lot of weighing. Then, we weighed every electric-powered airplane after every flight. In addition, we weighed the glow-powered airplanes whose owners were unlucky to pull the "wrong" ball after each flight. We worked from the prelims through the finals and neither of us want to do it again. <br>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><br>
</SPAN><br>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><br>
</SPAN>We were particularly unhappy that a weight tolerance was given, even though we provided accurate scales and calibration weights with certification papers. What was done appeared to be counter to F3A rules. I understand why a weight tolerance will be given to Intermediate pilots, but hope the the 5000 gram limit will apply to all the rest of the competitors.<br>
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<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><br>
</SPAN>Ron Van Putte<br>
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<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><br>
</SPAN>On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Archie Stafford wrote:<SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><br>
</SPAN>Hello everyone. I trust that everyone is anxiously awaiting a shiny new pattern <A href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016" target=_blank><</A><A href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016" target=_blank>http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016</A>> plane or gizmo arriving at Christmas this year. I realize we are a ways away from the NATS 2012, but its never too early to start communicating. The official entry forms are now online at the following link. <SPAN style="COLOR: #00265e"><A href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx" target=_blank>http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx</A></SPAN> <A href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx" target=_blank><</A><A href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx" target=_blank>http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx</A>> Entry forms will still be mailed to those who attended last year, but for anyone wishing to get a jump on things and get registered now you can download the entry form and send them in. I plan <A href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582" target=_blank><</A><A href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582" target=_blank>http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582</A>> to start putting out monthly status updates after the first of the year so that everyone knows where things stand. I have a great group of people who have volunteered to help and everything is coming together very nicely. <br>
<br>
A few things worth mentionings are that the banquet will be held the night <A href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133" target=_blank><</A><A href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133" target=_blank>http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133</A>> before the finals this year. It will be held on site at the banquet area at the museum and will be catered. Final catering details have not been finalized yet. At this banquet, the Masters and FAI finalists will be announced and flight orders drawn. This is possible this year due to the rule change that there will no longer be an unknowns meeting per the new FAI rules. The unknowns will be created by the Event Director and handed out to the finalists at the banquet. This will also allow the Intermediate and Advanced winners to be announced in front of the entire group. <br>
<br>
Another item to be aware of is that EVERY airplane will be weighed this year. We are still finalizing plans on the most efficient way to do this, but be aware that every airplane will be weighed this year and it will be after a flight. Ideally they will be weighed after every flight, but at least once a day is my goal. We learned a lot from how it was done at the worlds last year and this should not be difficult to do as we have intermediate pilots who no longer work transmitter impound that we can use as well as some other people involved. As I said, the plans are not finalized, but we are working very hard on them and after the first of the year I will let everyone know what we have come up with as a final plan. My goal is to stay in contact with everyone so that no one can say they didn't know. <br>
<br>
One other important piece of information are the cut off deadlines. They will be strictly enforced. They have been moved slightly closer to the actual start of the NATS, but no entries after the final deadline will be accepted. No exceptions. One change though is that up until the final cut off we will be able to issue refunds. We will not be able to issue the refund from the AMA part of the entry fee, but the NSRCA part of the fee will be refunded. <br>
<br>
Looking forward to seeing everyone in Muncie in July. <br>
<br>
Please limit discussions to useful information regarding this thread. Also, if you have a complaint on how things have been done, I am more than open to listen, but please have ideas on how to correct these issues. <br>
<br>
Archie Stafford <br>
2012 Pattern NATS ED <br>
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