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As I understand it, TBL is applied to the raw score for each judge
for the whole flight, not the maneuver, in an effort to correct for
biases and bad judging. Of course if the valid zero still puts the
"lone wolf zero judge" too far from the norm, then his scores <i>will</i>
be discarded.<br>
However no one is going to come up with a system that corrects for
judges that miss the extra spin or give a score when the wrong
maneuver is flown, especially when they are in the majority. What if
they all miss it and the pilot fesses up afterwards? How does a
scoring system cope? That is up to us as individual judges to fix,
not the scoring system.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
On 12/9/2011 4:35 PM, Del wrote:
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<div><strong><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Bob.. It is not so
much that people don't have a solid understanding of
STATISTICAL ANALYSIS as much as the problem of it happens
more often than some are willing to admit or realize that a
judge that award a zero can be the only one that was the
accurate judge. The assumption being that if only one judge
gave a zero then the rest must be correct and the lone wolf
is the wrong one. History has shown that repeatedly is not
the case in actuality. Speaking from my own personal
experience when judging both in Canada and the U.S. ~ yes `~
even at the Nats.. Shudder..!!! </font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"> </font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"> Del</font></strong></div>
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<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion]
Fw: Judging . . . . . .</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: times new
roman, new york, times, serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto"><var
id="yui-ie-cursor"></var>Actually, no.</span></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div id="yiv708315470">
<div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: times
new roman, new york, times, serif; COLOR: #000;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>The only statistically valid comparison
is when a large enough number of judges are
judging the same flight. Most local contests
have only two judges per flight. There is no
way to know if one judge is doing a better job
than the other because you don't have a large
enough group to establish an average score.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>The only thing you may see are "high" and
"low" judges, but that is not important unless
there is bias, which falls into my first
statement. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>The NATS comes close to having large
enough judging groups<var
id="yiv708315470yui-ie-cursor"></var>. But,
at least up until now, no one has been willing
to propose using any statisical analysis on the
judges performance. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>The Worlds uses TBL to analyze judging
performance and exclude "bad" scores. It is
contriversial, since most people don't have a
solid understanding of the statistical analysis
used. The raw scores are posted during the
preliminaries, and everyone uses those to
determine placement. But when TBL is applied,
it can alter the pilot positions by tossing out
scores that are ruled statistically invalid.
</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bob Kane<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york,
times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new
york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><font
face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b>
Peter Vogel <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vogel.peter@gmail.com"><vogel.peter@gmail.com></a><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b>
Bob Kane <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"><getterflash@yahoo.com></a>;
General pattern discussion
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</span></b>
nsrca <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b>
Friday, December 9, 2011 10:40 AM<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging . . . . . .<br>
</font><br>
<div id="yiv708315470">
<div>
<div>Doesn't having a scoring system that
allows for aggregated data analysis help
with judging the judges over time?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Peter+<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone4S</div>
<div><br>
On Dec 9, 2011, at 7:04 AM, Bob Kane <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff;
FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new
york, times, serif; COLOR: #000;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div><span>Personally, I think we need
to continue to focus of the
quality of judging before we get
too distracted on automated score
entry.<br>
</span></div>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div><span>2 - Know the rules</span></div>
<div><span>3 - Apply the rules</span></div>
<div><span>4 - Be consistent<br>
</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bob Kane<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
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