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I think you would be better off listing the information that a pilot
and his caller can receive through telemetry during an official
flight. This information could be audible alarms for exceeding
limits of the three parameters you listed. This is effectively the
same as the low battery alarm currently in your transmitter. This
one just happens to have an RF link added between the sensor and the
alarm. <br>
<br>
We should not be concerned about what telemetry is being downloaded
and recorded but only what telemetry data the pilot/caller is
receiving in realtime during an official competition flight. It
doesn't make a lot of sense to enact rules that cannot easily be
enforced. It should be permissible for the pilot to set up a
download of any info he wants but would only be allowed to examine
the telemetry data postflight as an instructional aid. That data
would have no standing in the competition and could not be used for
any kind of protest.<br>
<br>
Of course there should be a ban on any closed loop control systems
that use the attitude, velocities or accelerations of the model as
feedback, either directly in the model or through the transmitter.
This should not preclude the use of closed loop systems such as
those that control surface position, system voltage or motor/engine
rpm which do not use aircraft parameters as feedback.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
On 11/21/2011 7:57 PM, Peter Vogel wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAGBB6kLCWnF6eU_1=_3fTs6ech3LOVm_iJKCN9SRkB=yFfKXAQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Dave,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I wonder why you think a middle ground would create
controversy? I get why there's been controversy as to what's a
snap roll (and what's a spin for that matter) but for telemetry,
it should be simple enough to enumerate what's permitted:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. Battery voltage</div>
<div>2. Amp draw</div>
<div>3. Temperature</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Anything else not permitted.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Peter+<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Dave
Lockhart <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Fair
enough distinction on the differences between
Spektrum and Hitec/Graupner.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I’m
in no way suggesting the telemetry be ignored. I’m
suggesting that rules that are impossible to
accurately write, interpret, and enforce are only
going to be a timesink and source of controversy.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Pattern
planes are quiet because we have a noise rule….not
because the noise rule is rigidly enforced at every
pattern contest. If an extremely loud plane were to
show up at a pattern contest, I’d think at the
majority of local contests the owner of the loud
plane would be offered assistance to quiet the
plane, and/or asked to quiet the plane prior to the
next event.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Regarding
the future of telemetry in pattern…..we can either
embrace it 100% and allow it to help pilots in
any/all capacities (simple enough, just adds more
cost and complexity to the event), pick a middle
ground of what telemetry is allowed (and embrace
controversy), or disallow it (simple answer). While
I easily see current/future radios including
telemetry oriented at increasing safety / preserving
equipment (that may or may not be able to be turned
off), I seriously doubt any of the radio
manufacturers are going to produce radios with
telemetry features that will enhance flying that can
not be turned off. To that end, I think it is
easiest to disallow telemetry…..and then tech
inspect if/when needed……and I suspect telemetry to
“cheat” will be about as common as gyros.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Dave</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Peter Vogel<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 21, 2011 9:34 PM</span></p>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry
rule & new radio systems</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">DX8 has telemetry but it's only
sent if you have a TM1000 or similar module in
your plane, so unless you bind the telemetry unit
when you bind the RX, it's off. But that's NOT
how Hitec and Graupner have implemented theirs
(battery telemetry is always on in the Aurora 9
and now even their entry level transmitters and
ALL of their receivers) Spektrum & JR are
heading that direction in their next gen, Futaba
won't be far behind lest they lose more market
share in the US to JR & Spektrum. It's a
reality of the market and ignoring it won't make
it go away.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Peter+</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at
6:14 PM, Dave Lockhart <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net"
target="_blank">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Spektrum
DX8 has telemetry, for about 1 year
now. And it can be turned off. Yes
something else that technically would
need to be inspected, just like
inspecting TX programming for “magic”
switches to defeat the noise test.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><br>
Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><br>
Dave</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Peter Vogel<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 21, 2011
9:09 PM</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
No telemetry rule & new radio
systems</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">My issue with this
approach is that it effectively makes
the current generation of equipment
illegal for pattern competition as
telemetry is integrated into all new
receivers + transmitters from Graupner
and Hitec already, I suspect
Spektrum/JR aren't far behind and
we'll see what Futaba comes up with in
their next tech refresh. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I know I'm just a
sportsman competitor and not up to
the calibre of the most of the
people on this list, but from my
perspective I'd like to see
something very straightforward,
something like this:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Radio control
equipment must be of the open loop
type, no on-board or telemetry-based
automated feedback loop equipment
such as gyroscopes, autopilots or
similar equipment is permitted.
Downlink telemetry providing basic
system health functions such as
battery voltage and servo or motor
current draw and temperature data is
permissible, but advanced telemetry
such as heading, attitude, airspeed,
windspeed, etc. is not allowed.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Peter+</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Nov
21, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Dave
Lockhart <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net"
target="_blank">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">While
the intent is clear
enough, wordsmithing rules
to get exactly the desired
intent and only the
desired intent is never
going to be truly
achievable….just like the
perpetual wordsmithing for
snaps and spins.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
simple solution is ban all
telemetry and remove the
problem of determining
what telemetry is / isn’t
allowed. I am not opposed
to systems that enhance
safety, but telemetry is
not needed to do that,
simply link whatever
onboard monitoring to the
RX and have the throttle
pulsed to idle….just like
the RF / low battery
failsafe / holds setups do
now.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Dave</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>astropuppy<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday,
November 21, 2011 7:03 PM</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>To:</b> General
pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] No
telemetry rule & new
radio systems</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just
my 2 cents. I think
this technology would be
best used to eliminate
the judges. Take a few
(box & center)
gps coordinates before
the contest and voila a
judge who will work all
day without lunch or a
Bio break. Mike</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at
4:45 PM, J N Hiller
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" target="_blank">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">I
wasn't going to
get back into
this but thanks
to your
thoughtful reply
I now have more
questions /
concerns we may
need to be aware
of before
adjusting rules.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">If
allowed I can
envision
telemetry
expanding to
include absolute
positioning of
the flight
plane, feedback
to a processor
giving the pilot
audible
instructions
during the
flight similar
to a good
caller. Call
this a virtual
or electronic
caller helping
the pilot with
timely verbal
advise
throughout the
flight assist
him in
correcting any
and all
deviations from
the required
track. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">If
we allow that
only visual
feedback be used
but the pilot
than the rule
needs to allow
only system
related data be
available in
real time, no
flight data.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">If
electronic
flight sensor
data is allowed
need it be
interpreted by a
biological
assistant or
should
electronic
processing of
the raw data be
allowed
resulting in
usable pilot
commands. Should
the instructions
talking
electronic
device?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">If
we start
nitpicking
functionality
within the rules
we will be
revisiting the
rule about as
often as snap
rolls. It
appears to me
every thing
except closed
loop electronic
flight command
could be
allowed. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Disallowing
advancing
technology
doesn't work for
long. That
sounds familiar
doesn't it. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">The
nice young lady
in my truck
computer does a
good job
assisting me
with navigation.
I bet she could
just as easily
help me keep my
RC airplane on
that invisible
flight path as
well as call the
next maneuver.
It admittedly
wouldn't be the
same as a real
live caller
including
selective
additives in
their verbal
suggestions.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Looks
like another
move to the
latest and
greatest
equipment few of
us would benefit
from.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Jim</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b>On
Behalf Of </b>Ed
Alt<br>
<b>Sent:</b>
Monday, November
21, 2011 10:27
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> NSRCA
List<br>
<b>Subject:</b>
Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
No telemetry
rule & new
radio systems</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in">
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Is
it against the
rules for your
caller to
mention that the
engine sounds
lean? Can he
tell you that it
looks like
you're dropping
a wing in the
corners? What if
he says you're
drifting out to
200 meters, or
that you just
about missed the
pole on the
turnaround? All
of these things
are in-flight
feedback, based
on audible or
visual feedback
from the model,
that you, the
pilot may or may
not have
observed as
keenly as your
caller. And
you, as the
pilot, may or
may not act on
this feedback,
which is
different than
an automated
closed loop
feedback
system. It's
called free
will. If your
caller grabs the
sticks to fix
any of these
issues for you,
it's another
matter entirely.<br>
<br>
So now there can
be telemetry
feedback. It is
only a closed
loop feedback
system if there
is a mechanism
in place to take
specific action
on that feedback
in a
pre-determined
fashion, which
results in
having corrected
some condition
of flight with
the model. How
a low voltage
warning could
count as closed
loop feedback is
debatable, but I
guess that if
it's OK for a
hearing
imparied pilot
to be assisted
by a caller
to land when
there's an
engine problem,
then it ought to
be OK for an
audible beep or
a glance at a
telemetry
display to clue
you in on what's
happening inside
the model,
before it
becomes a safety
problem.<br>
<br>
Just for
perspective, your
servos and
voltage
regulators are
all closed loop
feedback
systems. So is
the pressure
regulator on a
YS, if you are
still running
one. None of
those closed
loop systems fly
the model for
you. They only
serve to
stabilize that
part of the
system that you
are in command
of.<br>
<br>
Ed<br>
</span></p>
<div
style="margin-left:.5in">
<div
class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center" align="center"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<hr
align="center"
size="2"
width="100%">
</span></div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" target="_blank">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a><br>
To: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Date: Mon, 21
Nov 2011
09:12:15 -0800<br>
Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
No telemetry
rule & new
radio systems</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">"Closed
Loop" ?? Dose
this include
information
displayed for
pilot and or
caller to use
during a
competition
flight? Or only
electronic? If
the info is
displayed on the
TX screen should
it be blacked
out during
flight? A beep
for low voltage
is obviously a
good thing but
much more than
that could be
perceived as
unequal
advantage.
Personally I
don't have the
time or
processing
ability to deal
with it in real
time. Keeping
track of what
I'm trying to do
is about all I
can manage.</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Jim</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"> </span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b>On
Behalf Of </b>Jay
Marshall<br>
<b>Sent:</b>
Monday, November
21, 2011 8:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b>
'General pattern
discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b>
Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
No telemetry
rule & new
radio systems</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in">
<span
style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">“Good”
and “No Good”
are not the
issue. As far as
I am concerned,
all information
can be “Good”.
The issue is how
it is used – no
closed loop
control.</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Harlow
Solid
Italic";color:#1f497d">Jay
Marshall</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of
</b><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com" target="_blank">rcmaster199@aol.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b>
Monday, November
21, 2011 10:44
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b>
Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
No telemetry
rule & new
radio systems</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">So,
who's gonna
draft a
replacement rule
for the old,
antiquated one?
Sounds to me
like some types
of telemetry are
not a bad thing
(airborne
radio voltage,
servo condition,
are two OTOH).
Other types are
no good
(direction, rpm,
voltage/current
of power supply,
exhaust temp,
etc)</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
<p
style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">MattK</span></p>
<p
style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Verne
Koester <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com" target="_blank">verne@twmi.rr.com</a>><br>
To: 'General
pattern
discussion' <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Mon, Nov
21, 2011 10:24
am<br>
Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
No telemetry
rule & new
radio systems</span></p>
<div>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">They
were removed
in mine as
well. That was
the last
Futaba top
tier radio
that came with
good stiff
springs.</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Verne</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?" target="_blank">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf
Of </b>Bob
Richards<br>
<b>Sent:</b>
Monday,
November 21,
2011 9:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b>
General
pattern
discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b>
Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
No telemetry
rule & new
radio systems</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:1.0in">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
<table
style="width:469.5pt;margin-left:1.0in"
border="0"
cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0"
width="626">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
style="padding:0in
0in 0in 0in"
valign="top">
<p><span
style="color:black">I
think we all
know what the
intent of the
rule is, but I
think we all
agree that the
rule needs to
be modified to
make that
clear.</span></p>
<p><span
style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="color:black">As
for a snap
switch, it is
not a "control
sequencing or
control
timing device"
as it does not
initiate any
kind of
sequence or
start any kind
of timing
event, IMHO.
Does anyone
remember the
very first
Futaba 8SGA
transmitters
that DID have
timers on the
snap switch
function, such
that when you
activated the
switch it
would deflect
the different
control
surfaces for a
predetermined
amount of time
(programmable).
In my
transmitter,
the adjustment
pots for that
had been
removed,
presumably
because of the
rules against
such
functions.</span></p>
<p><span
style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="color:black">Bob
R.</span></p>
<p><span
style="color:black"><br>
<br>
--- On <b>Sat,
11/19/11, John
Ford <i><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:astropattern@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">astropattern@yahoo.com</a>></i></b>
wrote:</span></p>
<p
style="margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="color:black"><br>
From: John
Ford <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:astropattern@yahoo.com" target="_blank">astropattern@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]
No telemetry
rule & new
radio systems<br>
To: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Date:
Saturday,
November 19,
2011, 8:03 PM</span></p>
<p
style="margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="color:black">I would speculate that the term "feedback" means a
closed control
loop where the
telemetry data
would actually
become
pre-programed
data input to
the TX
software such
that throttle,
rates, flight
conditions, or
mixes would
actually be
modified by
the software
in real time.
That would
certainly be a
game-changer!
<br>
Just having
open telemetry
isn't an
advantage...it's
probably a
distraction,
unless you
alarm on Rx
battery
voltage or
something like
that. <br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, Nov
19, 2011 5:37
PM EST Peter
Vogel wrote:<br>
<br>
>Hmm.<br>
><br>
>So I'm
looking at
section 4.4 of
the AMA
Competition
regulations
here:<br>
><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2011-2012RCAerobatics1.pdf"
target="_blank">http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2011-2012RCAerobatics1.pdf</a><br>
><br>
>I see the
following
emphasis mine:<br>
><br>
>Radio
control
equipment
shall be of
the open loop
type<br>
>(i.e. *no
electronic
feedback from
the model to
the *<br>
>*ground*)<br>
><br>
>It then
goes on to
provide
examples of
what is/is not
permitted:<br>
><br>
>Examples
of control
functions not
permitted:<br>
>8)
Electronic or
other signal
or feedback<br>
>from the
model of *any
kind.*<br>
><br>
>I believe
the verbiage
needs to be
changed to
reflect the
spirit and
intent<br>
>of the
rule, which is
to prevent
telemetry data
(i.e. heading,
airspeed,<br>
>etc.) that
would provide
an advantage
in precision
to the pilot
flying with<br>
>said
equipment.
Basic
telemetry data
such as the
state of
charge for the<br>
>reciever
and main
system
batteries (in
the case of an
electric)
model<br>
>and/or
engine/motor
temperature,
RPM, etc.
provide no
such advantage
and<br>
>should be
permitted as
it enhances
flight safety
and provides
some<br>
>protection
for the
airframes
themselves.<br>
><br>
>Rex, says
that "it goes
on to say that
the rule is to
prevent<br>
>pre-programmed
control of the
aircraft such
as timed
snaps" but I
believe<br>
>those are
distinct
sentences, the
RC equipment
must be open
loop with no<br>
>feedback
from the model
to the
ground.
Period, full
stop. Then it
goes on<br>
>with
additional
requirements
distinct from
the RC TX/RX:
Autopilots are<br>
>prohibited
(i.e. devices
such as the
UAVDev board
or Ardupilot
or the new<br>
>AS3X from
Horizon would
be prohibited,
even though
they are not
closed-loop<br>
>control
systems.
Further,
automatic
control
sequencing or
control timing<br>
>devices
(which I have
always read as
preventing the
use of snap
button<br>
>functions
on modern
computer
transmitters)
are
prohibited.
I've wondered<br>
>how that
last one is
enforced given
virtually
every computer
radio today<br>
>has the
ability to
assign a snap
of any form to
any switch or
button on the<br>
>transmitter
and it would
be difficult
to check that
snap functions
are<br>
>inhibited
in every
contestent's
TX. I have
assumed the
honor system<br>
>applies.
I would expect
the same honor
system, with,
perhaps, a
check of<br>
>winning
pilot's
telemetry
systems in
high-stakes
events would
be sufficient<br>
>to relax
the telemetry
rule to allow
basic
telemetry
systems such
as the<br>
>Hitec,
Graupner +
Spektrum
systems to be
permitted.<br>
><br>
>Peter+<br>
><br>
>On Fri,
Nov 18, 2011
at 2:35 PM,
Richard Lewis
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=humptybump%40sbcglobal.net"
target="_blank">humptybump@sbcglobal.net</a>>wrote:<br>
><br>
>> The
rule likely
needs an
update to
verbage that
is consistent
with current<br>
>>
technology,
but as long as
there is no
closed loop on
any of the
telemetry<br>
>> it is
well within
the "spirit"
of the rule to
use/allow
these systems
in<br>
>>
pattern...<br>
>><br>
>>
------------------------------<br>
>>
*From:* Peter
Vogel <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vogel.peter%40gmail.com"
target="_blank">vogel.peter@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> *To:*
"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
>> ><br>
>>
*Sent:* Fri,
November 18,
2011 4:20:02
PM<br>
>><br>
>>
*Subject:*
[NSRCA-discussion]
No telemetry
rule & new
radio systems<br>
>><br>
>> I was
just reading
RCM&E (one
of my favorite
magazines) and
noticed that<br>
>> the
latest systems
from Graupner
and Hitec have
telemetry
built-in to
all<br>
>> RX's,
I suspect the
others aren't
far behind.
With the
current rule<br>
>>
against any
form of
downlink from
the aircraft,
it seems the
newer systems<br>
>> will
be out of
reach to those
competing in
pattern
aerobatics.
I'm just in<br>
>>
sportsman, any
thought to
relaxing the
rule to
restricting
telemetry that<br>
>> might
actually be an
advantage in
competition as
opposed to
things that
can<br>
>> save
an airframe
like battery
voltage data?<br>
>><br>
>>
Peter+<br>
>><br>
>> Sent
from my
iPhone4S<br>
>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>
NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<br>
>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
>><br>
>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>
NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<br>
>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>-- <br>
>Did you
know?
Arthritis
affects people
in all age
groups
including
nearly<br>
>300,000
children.<br>
>Please
help me ride
525 miles down
the California
coast to
support<br>
>Arthritis
Research<br>
><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://2011cccnca.kintera.org/pvogel" target="_blank">http://2011cccnca.kintera.org/pvogel</a><br>
<br>
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<p
style="margin-left:1.0in">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in;background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> </span></tt></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in;background:white"> </pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in;background:white"> </pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in;background:white"><tt><span style="color:black"> </span></tt></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in;background:white"><span style="color:black"> </span></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in;background:white"><span style="color:black"> </span></pre>
<div>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in;background:white"> </pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in;background:white"> </pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in;background:white"><span style="color:black">_______________________________________________</span></pre>
</div>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in;background:white"> </pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in;background:white"><span style="color:black"> </span></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in;background:white"> </pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">-- <br>
Did you know? Arthritis affects
people in all age groups including
nearly 300,000 children.<br>
Please help me ride 525 miles down
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Arthritis Research<br>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">--
<br>
Did you know? Arthritis affects people in all
age groups including nearly 300,000 children.<br>
Please help me ride 525 miles down the
California coast to support Arthritis Research<br>
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</blockquote>
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<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
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-- <br>
Did you know? Arthritis affects people in all age groups
including nearly 300,000 children.<br>
Please help me ride 525 miles down the California coast to
support Arthritis Research<br>
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