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Is it against the rules for your caller to mention that the engine sounds lean? Can he tell you that it looks like you're dropping a wing in the corners? What if he says you're drifting out to 200 meters, or that you just about missed the pole on the turnaround? All of these things are in-flight feedback, based on audible or visual feedback from the model, that you, the pilot may or may not have observed as keenly as your caller. And you, as the pilot, may or may not act on this feedback, which is different than an automated closed loop feedback system. It's called free will. If your caller grabs the sticks to fix any of these issues for you, it's another matter entirely.<BR>
<BR>
So now there can be telemetry feedback. It is only a closed loop feedback system if there is a mechanism in place to take specific action on that feedback in a pre-determined fashion, which results in having corrected some condition of flight with the model. How a low voltage warning could count as closed loop feedback is debatable, but I guess that if it's OK for a hearing imparied pilot to be assisted by a caller to land when there's an engine problem, then it ought to be OK for an audible beep or a glance at a telemetry display to clue you in on what's happening inside the model, before it becomes a safety problem.<BR>
<BR>
Just for perspective, your servos and voltage regulators are all closed loop feedback systems. So is the pressure regulator on a YS, if you are still running one. None of those closed loop systems fly the model for you. They only serve to stabilize that part of the system that you are in command of.<BR>
<BR>
Ed<BR> <BR>
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From: jnhiller@earthlink.net<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:12:15 -0800<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems<BR><BR>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN class=ecxEmailStyle25><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"Closed Loop" ?? Dose this include information displayed for pilot and or caller to use during a competition flight? Or only electronic? If the info is displayed on the TX screen should it be blacked out during flight? A beep for low voltage is obviously a good thing but much more than that could be perceived as unequal advantage. Personally I don't have the time or processing ability to deal with it in real time. Keeping track of what I'm trying to do is about all I can manage.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=ecxMsoNormal><SPAN class=ecxEmailStyle25><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jay Marshall<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, November 21, 2011 8:00 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">“Good” and “No Good” are not the issue. As far as I am concerned, all information can be “Good”. The issue is how it is used – no closed loop control.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Harlow Solid Italic" color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Harlow Solid Italic'">Jay Marshall</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>rcmaster199@aol.com<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, November 21, 2011 10:44 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So, who's gonna draft a replacement rule for the old, antiquated one? Sounds to me like some types of telemetry are not a bad thing (airborne radio voltage, servo condition, are two OTOH). Other types are no good (direction, rpm, voltage/current of power supply, exhaust temp, etc)</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">MattK</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Verne Koester <verne@twmi.rr.com><BR>To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:24 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">They were removed in mine as well. That was the last Futaba top tier radio that came with good stiff springs.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Verne</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT></A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?"><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT></A>] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob Richards<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, November 21, 2011 9:21 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">I think we all know what the intent of the rule is, but I think we all agree that the rule needs to be modified to make that clear.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">As for a snap switch, it is not a "control sequencing or control timing device" as it does not initiate any kind of sequence or start any kind of timing event, IMHO. Does anyone remember the very first Futaba 8SGA transmitters that DID have timers on the snap switch function, such that when you activated the switch it would deflect the different control surfaces for a predetermined amount of time (programmable). In my transmitter, the adjustment pots for that had been removed, presumably because of the rules against such functions.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Bob R.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxMsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"><BR><BR>--- On <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sat, 11/19/11, John Ford <I><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><<A href="mailto:astropattern@yahoo.com"><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">astropattern@yahoo.com</SPAN></FONT></A>></SPAN></I></SPAN></B> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"><BR>From: John Ford <<A href="mailto:astropattern@yahoo.com"><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">astropattern@yahoo.com</SPAN></FONT></A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems<BR>To: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT></A><BR>Date: Saturday, November 19, 2011, 8:03 PM</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">I would speculate that the term "feedback" means a closed control loop where the telemetry data would actually become pre-programed data input to the TX software such that throttle, rates, flight conditions, or mixes would actually be modified by the software in real time. That would certainly be a game-changer! <BR>Just having open telemetry isn't an advantage...it's probably a distraction, unless you alarm on Rx battery voltage or something like that. <BR><BR>John<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 5:37 PM EST Peter Vogel wrote:<BR><BR>>Hmm.<BR>><BR>>So I'm looking at section 4.4 of the AMA Competition regulations here:<BR>><A href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2011-2012RCAerobatics1.pdf" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2011-2012RCAerobatics1.pdf</SPAN></FONT></A><BR>><BR>>I see the following emphasis mine:<BR>><BR>>Radio control equipment shall be of the open loop type<BR>>(i.e. *no electronic feedback from the model to the *<BR>>*ground*)<BR>><BR>>It then goes on to provide examples of what is/is not permitted:<BR>><BR>>Examples of control functions not permitted:<BR>>8) Electronic or other signal or feedback<BR>>from the model of *any kind.*<BR>><BR>>I believe the verbiage needs to be changed to reflect the spirit and intent<BR>>of the rule, which is to prevent telemetry data (i.e. heading, airspeed,<BR>>etc.) that would provide an advantage in precision to the pilot flying with<BR>>said equipment. Basic telemetry data such as the state of charge for the<BR>>reciever and main system batteries (in the case of an electric) model<BR>>and/or engine/motor temperature, RPM, etc. provide no such advantage and<BR>>should be permitted as it enhances flight safety and provides some<BR>>protection for the airframes themselves.<BR>><BR>>Rex, says that "it goes on to say that the rule is to prevent<BR>>pre-programmed control of the aircraft such as timed snaps" but I believe<BR>>those are distinct sentences, the RC equipment must be open loop with no<BR>>feedback from the model to the ground. Period, full stop. Then it goes on<BR>>with additional requirements distinct from the RC TX/RX: Autopilots are<BR>>prohibited (i.e. devices such as the UAVDev board or Ardupilot or the new<BR>>AS3X from Horizon would be prohibited, even though they are not closed-loop<BR>>control systems. Further, automatic control sequencing or control timing<BR>>devices (which I have always read as preventing the use of snap button<BR>>functions on modern computer transmitters) are prohibited. I've wondered<BR>>how that last one is enforced given virtually every computer radio today<BR>>has the ability to assign a snap of any form to any switch or button on the<BR>>transmitter and it would be difficult to check that snap functions are<BR>>inhibited in every contestent's TX. I have assumed the honor system<BR>>applies. I would expect the same honor system, with, perhaps, a check of<BR>>winning pilot's telemetry systems in high-stakes events would be sufficient<BR>>to relax the telemetry rule to allow basic telemetry systems such as the<BR>>Hitec, Graupner + Spektrum systems to be permitted.<BR>><BR>>Peter+<BR>><BR>>On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Richard Lewis <<A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=humptybump%40sbcglobal.net" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">humptybump@sbcglobal.net</SPAN></FONT></A>>wrote:<BR>><BR>>> The rule likely needs an update to verbage that is consistent with current<BR>>> technology, but as long as there is no closed loop on any of the telemetry<BR>>> it is well within the "spirit" of the rule to use/allow these systems in<BR>>> pattern...<BR>>><BR>>> ------------------------------<BR>>> *From:* Peter Vogel <<A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vogel.peter%40gmail.com" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">vogel.peter@gmail.com</SPAN></FONT></A>><BR>>> *To:* "<A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT></A>" <<A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT></A><BR>>> ><BR>>> *Sent:* Fri, November 18, 2011 4:20:02 PM<BR>>><BR>>> *Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems<BR>>><BR>>> I was just reading RCM&E (one of my favorite magazines) and noticed that<BR>>> the latest systems from Graupner and Hitec have telemetry built-in to all<BR>>> RX's, I suspect the others aren't far behind. With the current rule<BR>>> against any form of downlink from the aircraft, it seems the newer systems<BR>>> will be out of reach to those competing in pattern aerobatics. I'm just in<BR>>> sportsman, any thought to relaxing the rule to restricting telemetry that<BR>>> might actually be an advantage in competition as opposed to things that can<BR>>> save an airframe like battery voltage data?<BR>>><BR>>> Peter+<BR>>><BR>>> Sent from my iPhone4S<BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> <A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT></A><BR>>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</SPAN></FONT></A><BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> <A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT></A><BR>>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</SPAN></FONT></A><BR>>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>-- <BR>>Did you know? Arthritis affects people in all age groups including nearly<BR>>300,000 children.<BR>>Please help me ride 525 miles down the California coast to support<BR>>Arthritis Research<BR>><A href="http://2011cccnca.kintera.org/pvogel" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">http://2011cccnca.kintera.org/pvogel</SPAN></FONT></A><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT></A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</SPAN></FONT></A></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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