If it was truly "closed loop" then you should be wearing a blindfold and have earplugs inserted. . . <br clear="all"><br>Keith Hoard<br>Collierville, TN<br><a href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</a><br>
<br><br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 11:12 AM, J N Hiller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div link="black" vlink="black" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><font face="Arial" size="2" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">"Closed
Loop" ?? Dose this include information displayed for pilot and or caller
to use during a competition flight? Or only electronic? If the info is
displayed on the TX screen should it be blacked out during flight? A beep for
low voltage is obviously a good thing but much more than that could be
perceived as unequal advantage. Personally I don't have the time or processing
ability to deal with it in real time. Keeping track of what I'm trying to do is
about all I can manage.<u></u><u></u></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><font face="Arial" size="2" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Jim<u></u><u></u></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><font face="Arial" size="2" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"><u></u> <u></u><u></u><u></u></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Tahoma" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Jay Marshall<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Monday, November 21, 2011
8:00 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No
telemetry rule & new radio systems</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1f497d">“Good”
and “No Good” are not the issue. As far as I am concerned, all information can
be “Good”. The issue is how it is used – no closed loop control.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1f497d"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Harlow Solid Italic" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Harlow Solid Italic";color:#1f497d">Jay Marshall<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Calibri" size="2" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1f497d"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;border:none;padding:0in"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b><a href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com" target="_blank">rcmaster199@aol.com</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Monday, November 21, 2011
10:44 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No
telemetry rule & new radio systems</span></font><font face="Tahoma" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="black"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Arial" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">So,
who's gonna draft a replacement rule for the old, antiquated one? Sounds to me
like some types of telemetry are not a bad thing (airborne radio voltage,
servo condition, are two OTOH). Other types are no good (direction, rpm,
voltage/current of power supply, exhaust temp, etc)<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Arial" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><font face="Arial" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">MattK<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><font face="Arial" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Verne Koester <<a href="mailto:verne@twmi.rr.com" target="_blank">verne@twmi.rr.com</a>><br>
To: 'General pattern discussion' <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2011 10:24 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Arial" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">They
were removed in mine as well. That was the last Futaba top tier radio that came
with good stiff springs.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Arial" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Arial" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">Verne<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Arial" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><font face="Arial" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font face="Arial" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</span></font></a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</span></font></a>]
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Bob Richards<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Monday, November 21, 2011
9:21 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No
telemetry rule & new radio systems<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Arial" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<table style="width:469.5pt;margin-left:.5in" width="626" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="black"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">I think we all know what the intent of
the rule is, but I think we all agree that the rule needs to be modified to
make that clear.</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="black"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="black"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">As for a snap switch, it is not a
"control sequencing or control timing device" as it does not
initiate any kind of sequence or start any kind of timing event, IMHO. Does
anyone remember the very first Futaba 8SGA transmitters that DID have timers
on the snap switch function, such that when you activated the switch it would
deflect the different control surfaces for a predetermined amount of time
(programmable). In my transmitter, the adjustment pots for that had been
removed, presumably because of the rules against such functions.</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="black"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="black"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Bob R.</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="black"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sat, 11/19/11, John Ford <i><span style="font-style:italic"><<a href="mailto:astropattern@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">astropattern@yahoo.com</span></font></a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid #1010ff 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;padding:0in"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="black"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><br>
From: John Ford <<a href="mailto:astropattern@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">astropattern@yahoo.com</span></font></a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio systems<br>
To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></font></a><br>
Date: Saturday, November 19, 2011, 8:03 PM</span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;padding:0in"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="black"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">I would speculate that the term "feedback" means a
closed control loop where the telemetry data would actually become
pre-programed data input to the TX software such that throttle, rates, flight
conditions, or mixes would actually be modified by the software in real time.
That would certainly be a game-changer! <br>
Just having open telemetry isn't an advantage...it's probably a distraction,
unless you alarm on Rx battery voltage or something like that. <br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 5:37 PM EST Peter Vogel wrote:<br>
<br>
>Hmm.<br>
><br>
>So I'm looking at section 4.4 of the AMA Competition regulations here:<br>
><a href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2011-2012RCAerobatics1.pdf" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2011-2012RCAerobatics1.pdf</span></font></a><br>
><br>
>I see the following emphasis mine:<br>
><br>
>Radio control equipment shall be of the open loop type<br>
>(i.e. *no electronic feedback from the model to the *<br>
>*ground*)<br>
><br>
>It then goes on to provide examples of what is/is not permitted:<br>
><br>
>Examples of control functions not permitted:<br>
>8) Electronic or other signal or feedback<br>
>from the model of *any kind.*<br>
><br>
>I believe the verbiage needs to be changed to reflect the spirit and
intent<br>
>of the rule, which is to prevent telemetry data (i.e. heading, airspeed,<br>
>etc.) that would provide an advantage in precision to the pilot flying
with<br>
>said equipment. Basic telemetry data such as the state of charge
for the<br>
>reciever and main system batteries (in the case of an electric) model<br>
>and/or engine/motor temperature, RPM, etc. provide no such advantage and<br>
>should be permitted as it enhances flight safety and provides some<br>
>protection for the airframes themselves.<br>
><br>
>Rex, says that "it goes on to say that the rule is to prevent<br>
>pre-programmed control of the aircraft such as timed snaps" but I
believe<br>
>those are distinct sentences, the RC equipment must be open loop with no<br>
>feedback from the model to the ground. Period, full stop.
Then it goes on<br>
>with additional requirements distinct from the RC TX/RX: Autopilots are<br>
>prohibited (i.e. devices such as the UAVDev board or Ardupilot or the new<br>
>AS3X from Horizon would be prohibited, even though they are not
closed-loop<br>
>control systems. Further, automatic control sequencing or control
timing<br>
>devices (which I have always read as preventing the use of snap button<br>
>functions on modern computer transmitters) are prohibited. I've
wondered<br>
>how that last one is enforced given virtually every computer radio today<br>
>has the ability to assign a snap of any form to any switch or button on
the<br>
>transmitter and it would be difficult to check that snap functions are<br>
>inhibited in every contestent's TX. I have assumed the honor system<br>
>applies. I would expect the same honor system, with, perhaps, a
check of<br>
>winning pilot's telemetry systems in high-stakes events would be
sufficient<br>
>to relax the telemetry rule to allow basic telemetry systems such as the<br>
>Hitec, Graupner + Spektrum systems to be permitted.<br>
><br>
>Peter+<br>
><br>
>On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Richard Lewis <<a href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=humptybump@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">humptybump@sbcglobal.net</span></font></a>>wrote:<br>
><br>
>> The rule likely needs an update to verbage that is consistent with
current<br>
>> technology, but as long as there is no closed loop on any of the
telemetry<br>
>> it is well within the "spirit" of the rule to use/allow
these systems in<br>
>> pattern...<br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>> *From:* Peter Vogel <<a href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vogel.peter@gmail.com" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">vogel.peter@gmail.com</span></font></a>><br>
>> *To:* "<a href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></font></a>"
<<a href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></font></a><br>
>> ><br>
>> *Sent:* Fri, November 18, 2011 4:20:02 PM<br>
>><br>
>> *Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] No telemetry rule & new radio
systems<br>
>><br>
>> I was just reading RCM&E (one of my favorite magazines) and
noticed that<br>
>> the latest systems from Graupner and Hitec have telemetry built-in
to all<br>
>> RX's, I suspect the others aren't far behind. With the current
rule<br>
>> against any form of downlink from the aircraft, it seems the newer
systems<br>
>> will be out of reach to those competing in pattern aerobatics.
I'm just in<br>
>> sportsman, any thought to relaxing the rule to restricting telemetry
that<br>
>> might actually be an advantage in competition as opposed to things
that can<br>
>> save an airframe like battery voltage data?<br>
>><br>
>> Peter+<br>
>><br>
>> Sent from my iPhone4S<br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>> <a href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></font></a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</span></font></a><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>> <a href="http://us.mc1616.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></font></a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</span></font></a><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>-- <br>
>Did you know? Arthritis affects people in all age groups including nearly<br>
>300,000 children.<br>
>Please help me ride 525 miles down the California coast to support<br>
>Arthritis Research<br>
><a href="http://2011cccnca.kintera.org/pvogel" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">http://2011cccnca.kintera.org/pvogel</span></font></a><br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font face="Arial" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<pre style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><tt><font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">
<div>_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></div></span></font></tt></pre><pre style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><tt><font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">NSRCA-discussion mailing list<u></u><u></u></span></font></tt></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><tt><font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color:blue">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></font></a><u></u><u></u></span></font></tt></pre>
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