<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><P><SPAN>Jim,</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN>Plain and simple. I agree 100%<BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR></SPAN><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "J N Hiller" <jnhiller@earthlink.net><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:32:47 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond<BR><BR></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle22><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Unless there is mandatory advancement to FAI little will change.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle22><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Jim Hiller</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>John Gayer<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, September 23, 2010 8:12 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">We knew you meant Advanced.<BR>We have trouble in this part of the country getting enough pilots in each class so there is some competition. It can be very discouraging to drive hundreds of miles and end up the sole participant in your class. The last thing we need is to add a class to avoid fixing the problem in Masters. If Masters progresses to F3A then the pressure to upgrade Masters as a destination class would ease off.<BR><BR>Perhaps we <U>should</U> look to IMAC for some ideas. Around this part of the country (southwest) they are outdrawing pattern two to one and there are at least twice as many contests available. This is with planes that are at least as expensive than ours. BTW, Arch, the 1/4 circle with one roll starts in Intermediate not Sportsman.<BR><BR>So what are they doing?</SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Arial Unicode MS"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Unicode MS'"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.0in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">1.<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1><SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT>They have a common scoring system for all contests that <U>must</U> be used.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.0in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">2.<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1><SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT>They spice up a contest by having unknown patterns for all classes except Basic. The unknowns are created for the whole year by some committee. The CD just requests the unknowns for the weekend of the contest.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.0in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">3.<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1><SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT>They maintain season standings and individual contest results for all participants on a regional basis which is all available on one website. These regional standings can qualify you for entry in competitions such as the Tucson Shootout.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.0in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">4.<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1><SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT>The patterns for all classes are only 10 maneuvers long and you fly the sequence twice in each flight, Landings and takeoffs are not scored and you are expected to takeoff before the competitor preceding you has landed which keeps things flowing pretty well</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.0in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">5.<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1><SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT>There are additional separate results kept for Seniors with season point totals as well</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.0in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">6.<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1><SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT>There is usually an optional Freestyle competition that appeals mostly to the kids</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.0in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">7.<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1><SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT>They change patterns every year.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">In any case, IMAC is where you find the kids and the young adults, not at a Pattern contest. At our pattern contest last week we had 6 Sportsman flyers, all in their first contest. The age spread was 47 to 67. In fact the 47 year was the second youngest competitor overall as we had an intermediate contestant who was only 43. The only kid on the field was a 12 year old that was helping out as a club member.<BR>The last IMAC contest here in Albuquerque had two contestants under 13 and I would say that all age groups were well represented. <BR><BR>I don't believe there is anything that would "turnaround" the current skewing in pattern towards old farts but we could try some of the concepts IMAC is using. Certainly IMAC appears to have a much better handle on patterns and scoring. With a one year cycle on patterns it would be easy for the committe to respond to specific objections about patterns "we'll look imto that next year. Meanwhile just fly what we gave you". Also a National scoring system and website presentation of results and standings would be a big help.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR><BR><BR>On 9/23/2010 6:12 PM, Dave Harmon wrote: </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">>></SPAN></FONT> time because the new class would </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">be populated from the other classes….like Masters and Intermediate.<<<</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">arrrrgghhh……I meant Advanced……another class between Advanced and Masters.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Sorry….</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><FONT face=Calibri color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri"></SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><B><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Dave Harmon</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><B><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">NSRCA 586</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><B><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><B><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Sperry, Ok.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><FONT face=Calibri color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri"></SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </P>
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<DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-padding-alt: 3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Archie Stafford<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:59 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">We arent talking about totally changing everything. Unfortunately the average age of pattern flyers is constantly getting older. There are a few young new faces but not many. Many of those also fly helis or IMAC and at some point they will migrate that way. The planes have progressed, the equipment has progressed, but unfortunately a lot of the mindsets haven't. Adding new maneuvers which arent more difficult, but add new skills is essential in the progression of the sport. The sequences need to be designed to be a challenge for the top 50%, not made easier for those not there. Like it or not, Masters is a destination class and the skill level should reflect that. If guys dont have time to practice or skill levels are diminishing then avenues for them to move back a class. Not comparing us and IMAC, but in there sportsman sequence theyhave guys doing partial rolling circles. I have seen the pilots, they are certainly no better than our intermediate pilots. Their schedules FORCE guys to try new things. Its OK to try new things. Most people will find they arent as difficult as we think. No Im not advocating rolling circles, but how many pattern guys ever go out and just fly. Trying new maneuvers and trying to learn new skills. It will really improve your flying skills. OK. Ill shut up on the subject now. </SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Arch</SPAN></FONT></P><PRE style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT face="Courier New" color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank></A></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT face="Courier New" color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT></PRE></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</div></body></html>