<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><P><SPAN>I don't see why can not be part of AMA class. We fly FAI-F3A in all local contest and Nats. </SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR></SPAN><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Dave Harmon" <k6xyz@sbcglobal.net><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 11:19:03 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond<BR><BR></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Hi Vince….well….FAI/F3A is not an AMA class…..Masters and below ARE….so…FAI/F3A cannot be a destination class for an AMA event.</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Dave Harmon</SPAN></B></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net</SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Sperry, Ok.</SPAN></B></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:24 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I think that making FAI-F3A destination class will be easier natural solution. How we are going to organize local contests having one additional class?<BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Dave Harmon" <k6xyz@sbcglobal.net><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 7:12:00 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">>></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> time because the new class would </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">be populated from the other classes….like Masters and Intermediate.<<<</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">arrrrgghhh……I meant Advanced……another class between Advanced and Masters.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Sorry….</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Dave Harmon</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">NSRCA 586</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Sperry, Ok.</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Archie Stafford<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:59 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">We arent talking about totally changing everything. Unfortunately the average age of pattern flyers is constantly getting older. There are a few young new faces but not many. Many of those also fly helis or IMAC and at some point they will migrate that way. The planes have progressed, the equipment has progressed, but unfortunately a lot of the mindsets haven't. Adding new maneuvers which arent more difficult, but add new skills is essential in the progression of the sport. The sequences need to be designed to be a challenge for the top 50%, not made easier for those not there. Like it or not, Masters is a destination class and the skill level should reflect that. If guys dont have time to practice or skill levels are diminishing then avenues for them to move back a class. Not comparing us and IMAC, but in there sportsman sequence theyhave guys doing partial rolling circles. I have seen the pilots, they are certainly no better than our intermediate pilots. Their schedules FORCE guys to try new things. Its OK to try new things. Most people will find they arent as difficult as we think. No Im not advocating rolling circles, but how many pattern guys ever go out and just fly. Trying new maneuvers and trying to learn new skills. It will really improve your flying skills. OK. Ill shut up on the subject now. </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Arch<BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><BR>On Sep 23, 2010, at 7:44 PM, "Dave Harmon" <<A href="mailto:k6xyz@sbcglobal.net" target=_blank>k6xyz@sbcglobal.net</A>> wrote:</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">>></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> Wouldnt you like to see an updated catalog? <<</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Not really.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">>> Flying the same maneuvers in a different sequence seemslike it would get old<<</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">It might if I was able to fly at your level….unfortunately….I don’t.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">>> It seems like many are against trying anything new<<</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Not at all….but…see next.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">>> even if it doesnt raise the difficulty level.<<</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Flying Pattern competitively at any level is difficult enough at best. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Doing the maneuvers is not really the problem but doing them WELL enough to be competitive </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">even at local contests is a major challenge for many participants.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Perhaps we need a class between Intermediate and Masters…..the headcount in this ‘new’ class would </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">not necessarily add to the total headcount at any contest or take more time because the new class would </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">be populated from the other classes….like Masters and Intermediate.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Sort of a ‘half step’ if you like.</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Dave Harmon</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">NSRCA 586</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Sperry, Ok.</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Archie Stafford<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:17 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Wouldnt you like to see an updated catalog? Flying the same maneuvers in a different sequence seemslike it would get old. It seems like many are against trying anything new, even if it doesnt raise the difficulty level. <BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><BR>On Sep 23, 2010, at 7:13 PM, "Dave Harmon" <<A href="mailto:k6xyz@sbcglobal.net" target=_blank>k6xyz@sbcglobal.net</A>> wrote:</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Why do “we need to start adding some”? </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Who says so?</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The avalanche at the bottom of a loop has already been done…the outgoing pattern has one at the top of a loop.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Nothing new about the avalanche…and the 4-pt is not allowed so….what maneuvers then?</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Dave Harmon</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Sperry, Ok.</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Archie Stafford<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:53 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The 4pt is exactly the type of maneuver Dave is referring to. I know becausehe and I have both pushed for that. I dont think we need some of the really crazy stuff, but we need to start adding some. I dont think we need them at the bottom of loops, but the current doctrine the sequence committee has to follow will notallow a loop with a 4pt at the top. </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Arch <BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><BR>On Sep 23, 2010, at 6:46 PM, "Dave Harmon" <<A href="mailto:k6xyz@sbcglobal.net" target=_blank>k6xyz@sbcglobal.net</A>> wrote:</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">An avalanche or 4 pt roll in a loop is not an <I>‘FAI or IMAC style’</I> integrated maneuver.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Sperry, Ok.</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Archie Stafford<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:31 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Why not? An avalanche is an integrated maneuver. A 4pt roll at the top of a loop is certainly in the skill set of a masters pilot. </SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Arch<BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><BR>On Sep 23, 2010, at 3:38 PM, "Dave Harmon" <<A href="mailto:k6xyz@sbcglobal.net" target=_blank>k6xyz@sbcglobal.net</A>> wrote:</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I agree with Dave l but otherwise I disagree totally…..FAI and IMAC style integrated maneuvers don’t belong in Masters.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Dave Harmon</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Sperry, Ok.</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Dr Mike<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:58 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I totally agree with you, Dave, however, I would encourage the Masters sequence to begin including some integrated, safe stuff, such as a loop with roll at top or some such thing. It just simply makes the event so much more fun and exciting.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Dave<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:13 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">John,</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The only bit of your discussion I differ on is regarding the difficulty level for the “destination” class Masters. It is only a destination for some, and regardless of whether or not it is a destination class (in practice, name, or design), the difficulty level should be set based on the wishes of the majority – not the difficulty level of FAI. We (AMA pattern pilots) can always choose to set the difficulty level of Masters slightly less than, equal to, or slightly greater than FAI. But since we (AMA pattern pilots) have pretty much zero input or influence on FAI, we should never tie ourselves to the FAI schedule allowing it to dictate the difficulty level of Masters. Masters and FAI do not share the share goal, and never will.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Advancement systems aside, someone will be moving up or down for whatever reason(s), and I’m happy to partake in the celebrating or commiserating </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings">J</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Regards,</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dave Lockhart</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>John Gayer<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 22, 2010 11:29 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Dave,<BR><BR>Every time you move to a new class including sportsman there are potential airplane killers lurking. Long ago and far away, I remember losing two airplanes learning to do three consecutive rolls centered. If combined roll/loop maneuvers were introduced to Masters, the Masters pilots would quickly sort out how to execute them. My only point in addressing the lack of these maneuvers in Masters is the fact that it is the final AMA destination class and as such should deliver equivalent difficulty to F3A. Otherwise it is a feeder class without Advancement requirements.<BR><BR>In other countries where advancement to the next class has to be earned (by scoring average and the national organization keeps track), getting an advancement notice is cause for celebration and usually involves lots of beer. In Australia everyone aspires to gain admittance into the top level (which flies the F3A schedules and from which their World team is selected). The flip side is that if you start flying poorly or not at all, you find yourself moving back a class or two.<BR><BR>Such a system has a lot of merit. Keep flying well against your peers, you move up. Fly poorly, you move down. The beer sounds good too. Celebrate on the way up, commiserate on the way down, drinks all around in either case.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>On 9/22/2010 6:28 PM, Dave wrote: </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">John,</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">First, without picking a side on this particular debate, I’d offer the following comments / perspectives –</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">- Historically, surveys and polls have answered that integrated looping/rolling maneuvers should not be included in the Masters pattern.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">- an “airplane killer” looks a lot differently to a skilled Masters pilot compared to a middle of the pack advanced pilot moving into Masters, and this concern has historically been expressed, and is a hot button for a substantial number.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Second, my opinions -</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I fly FAI because I want to…I want the more challenging schedules and higher level of competition. Arguably, the FAI P schedule is not more difficult in some years, and I could easily argue it does not contain state of the art maneuvers, but flying FAI is still more difficult if for no other reason than a pilots time must be split between flying P, F, and unknowns.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Masters has a wide range of pilot abilities, and is “home” for many for different reasons. As such, it will always be a compromise class, unlike FAI F3A which is focused on picking the best F3A Team in the world and the best individual pilot in the world. So long as the majority of Masters do not want state of the art maneuvers, Masters should not have state of the art maneuvers.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I do believe it might be a little easier to establish and maintain the difficulty level of each class and the steps between the classes IF a system were established that required a pilot advance to the next higher class based on achieving a given proficiency, and also demoted a pilot who did not achieve a minimum standard. Several countries use this approach, and from what I have seen, it appears to work as well or better than the point system used in the US. Mandatory advancement to F3A is a separate, but related topic.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Regards,</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dave Lockhart</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>John Gayer<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 22, 2010 6:40 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion; Mark Hunt<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Ro , serif','serif'">Derek,<BR><BR>I thought we already selected a pattern through the survey. Is the survey now meaningless because it chose the wrong length pattern?<BR><BR>I'm not quite sure I understand the logic behind raising the complexity of the short pattern at this late date, either. The sequence committee has worked on these patterns for two years or so and now it appears that because of a few comments at the Nats or whatever that all that work and the surveys are to be thrown out or at least revisited.<BR>I offered comments on the patterns 6 months ago and and said at that time that the Masters pattern was too easy in some areas. Didn't see anyone jumping to and making changes then. <BR>Comments about airplane killer maneuvers are also uncalled for. Any Masters pilot should be able to perform integrated roll/loop maneuvers without endangering the airplane. Making them good enough to score 8s and 9s, well that's a different matter. If you are making changes to the Masters pattern and keeping its role as a destination class, I firmly believe it should contain <U>state of the art</U> pattern maneuvers.<BR><BR>John Gayer<BR>District 6 Advanced pilot<BR><BR><BR>On 9/22/2010 4:10 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote: </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Ro , serif','serif'">Dave, </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New , serif','serif'">You are correct in that everyone is impacted on a short vs long schedule - my apologies for the definition of who is impacted. Regardless, please voice your opinion to your District VP.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times Ne , serif','serif'">On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Dave Burton <<A href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net" target=_blank>burtona@atmc.net</A>> wrote:</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Derek,</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">I really object to your definition of who has “Skin in the game” - <B>We all do if we pay our dues and attend contest</B>.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">The “skin” is the impact of a long vs. short sequence for every Masters flyer, Flyer who will be flying Masters in the next two years, every flyer/non flyer who judges at a contest, and every other flyer in all the other class who have to wait until the typically large Masters class finishes whatever sequence they fly.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">So, whether I fly Masters in the next two years or not, I intend to let my opinion be known to my district VP and I expect him to give my view the same weight of any other opinion from “Masters” flyers or others. </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">This is an issue that should not be decided by only “Masters” flyers.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d">Dave Burton</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Derek Koopowitz<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 22, 2010 5:31 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><BR><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Over 10 months ago the NSRCA Sequence Committee completed its work on the new sequences. These were posted on the NSRCA website for review and comment - see below:</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><A href="http://nsrca.us/proposedsequences/2011sequences.html" target=_blank>http://nsrca.us/proposedsequences/2011sequences.html</A></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Included in all this material was a draft document that outlined the process on how sequences are developed, tested and approved and the makeup/content of the sequences based on the class it is meant to serve. This document is titled "NSRCA Procedures, Standards and Guidelines for AMA R/C Precision Aerobatics Sequence Development". A mouthful, but it does outline a lot of information. It details the charter for the Sequence Committee, sequence development standards and guidelines for all classes, catalog of maneuvers for all classes and the process that the NSRCA will follow in designing, testing and approving changes to sequences, or for proposed sequences. These sequence development standards and guidelines have been in place for about 4 years now and have been used very successfully to build the current set of sequences that everyone is flying today, in addition to the prior Masters sequence (and the new one as well).</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Overall we received positive comments on the proposed sequences from Sportsman through Masters. As you know, there were two sequences developed for Masters, a long sequence using the standard 23 maneuver count and a short sequence using 19 maneuvers. In the time since we posted the sequences, some informal surveys were also made on the NSRCA website as well as on RCU asking for a preference of either the short or long Masters schedule. The overwhelming majority of respondents chose the short sequence. However, these surveys were a little flawed in that we didn't really know who was voting for them - were they all judges/pilots who voted because they didn't want to judge a long sequence, or were they really current and/or future Masters pilots that really did want to fly a shorter sequence.</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Since the release of the proposed schedules, and some post Nats comments, the sequence committee has been hard at work making some tweaks to the short schedule with a view to increasing the difficulty level of the short Masters sequence to bring it into line with the long Masters sequence and also to ensure that we weren't lowering the bar in difficulty by introducing a shorter sequence. Bear in mind that the short sequence is only 19 maneuvers (17 of them flyable) so raising the difficulty level is a challenge if one is to avoid using some existing F3A type maneuvers, or "airplane killers", and to only use maneuvers that match the philosophy that we've embraced for a number of years. Since we've never developed a short Masters sequence, we need to make sure we get it right and that it not only provides a challenge to those that fly it but that it still provides a somewhat relatively higher jump for those pilots that are moving up from Advanced. We realize that creating a perfect schedule is not going to happen - we won't be able to please every pilot that moves up from Advanced, nor will we be able to please some former F3A pilots that think the schedule is too easy and isn't enough of a challenge. There has to be a balance. The Sequence Committee came up with some good positive changes and these are being vetted/tested as I write this. They've received extremely positive feedback from everyone that has either flown the newer short sequence on a simulator or using their pattern plane at the field. By the end of this weekend we'll know for sure whether it is a keeper or not.</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">When we do post the revised sequence I would like all of you that have "skin in this game", meaning you are a current Masters pilot or will be moving to Masters in the next year or two, to please contact your NSRCA District VP and let them know what your preference is - short or long sequence. The reason they need to know is that the NSRCA board will vote in the next couple of weeks to approve all the proposed sequences and also to select which sequence the Masters class will be flying in 2011/2012.</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">The Sequence Committee is comprised of Joe Lachowski, Dave Lockhart, Verne Koester, Bill Glaze, Archie Stafford, and Richard Lewis. They've put in an extraordinary amount of work on these sequences and documentation and deserve huge kudos from everyone! Thanks guys - your work is very much appreciated!</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">We've also created a Sequence Committee section on the NSRCA website which will have more information soon. It will contain the updated draft documentation and all the proposed sequences in one location. You can get to the new section from the main menu - just look for Sequence Committee - it is near the bottom of the menu.</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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