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Dave,<br>
<br>
Every time you move to a new class including sportsman there are
potential airplane killers lurking. Long ago and far away, I
remember losing two airplanes learning to do three consecutive rolls
centered. If combined roll/loop maneuvers were introduced to
Masters, the Masters pilots would quickly sort out how to execute
them. My only point in addressing the lack of these maneuvers in
Masters is the fact that it is the final AMA destination class and
as such should deliver equivalent difficulty to F3A. Otherwise it is
a feeder class without Advancement requirements.<br>
<br>
In other countries where advancement to the next class has to be
earned (by scoring average and the national organization keeps
track), getting an advancement notice is cause for celebration and
usually involves lots of beer. In Australia everyone aspires to gain
admittance into the top level (which flies the F3A schedules and
from which their World team is selected). The flip side is that if
you start flying poorly or not at all, you find yourself moving back
a class or two.<br>
<br>
Such a system has a lot of merit. Keep flying well against your
peers, you move up. Fly poorly, you move down. The beer sounds good
too. Celebrate on the way up, commiserate on the way down, drinks
all around in either case.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
On 9/22/2010 6:28 PM, Dave wrote:
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;">John,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;">First, without picking a side
on this
particular debate, I’d offer the following comments
/ perspectives –<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;">- Historically, surveys and
polls have
answered that integrated looping/rolling maneuvers
should not be included in
the Masters pattern.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;">- an “airplane killer” looks a
lot differently to a skilled Masters pilot compared
to a middle of the pack
advanced pilot moving into Masters, and this concern
has historically been
expressed, and is a hot button for a substantial
number.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;">Second, my opinions -<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;">I fly FAI because I want to…I
want
the more challenging schedules and higher level of
competition. Arguably,
the FAI P schedule is not more difficult in some
years, and I could easily
argue it does not contain state of the art
maneuvers, but flying FAI is still
more difficult if for no other reason than a pilots
time must be split between
flying P, F, and unknowns.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;">Masters has a wide range of
pilot
abilities, and is “home” for many for different
reasons. As
such, it will always be a compromise class, unlike
FAI F3A which is focused on
picking the best F3A Team in the world and the best
individual pilot in the
world. So long as the majority of Masters do not
want state of the art
maneuvers, Masters should not have state of the art
maneuvers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;">I do believe it might be a
little easier
to establish and maintain the difficulty level of
each class and the steps
between the classes IF a system were established
that required a pilot advance
to the next higher class based on achieving a given
proficiency, and also
demoted a pilot who did not achieve a minimum
standard. Several countries
use this approach, and from what I have seen, it
appears to work as well or
better than the point system used in the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
Mandatory advancement to
F3A is a separate, but related topic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;">Dave Lockhart<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;"
align="center"><font color="black" face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color:
windowtext;">
<hr tabindex="-1" align="center" width="100%"
size="2">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black"
face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext;
font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font
color="black" face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;
color: windowtext;">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>John
Gayer<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Wednesday, September 22,
2010 6:40 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
<st1:personname w:st="on">General pattern
discussion</st1:personname>; Mark Hunt<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond</span></font><font
color="black"><span style="color: windowtext;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Derek,<br>
<br>
I thought we already selected a pattern through the
survey. Is the survey now
meaningless because it chose the wrong length
pattern?<br>
<br>
I'm not quite sure I understand the logic behind
raising the complexity of the
short pattern at this late date, either. The
sequence committee has
worked on these patterns for two years or so and now
it appears that because of
a few comments at the Nats or whatever that all that
work and the surveys are
to be thrown out or at least revisited.<br>
I offered comments on the patterns 6 months ago and
and said at that time that
the Masters pattern was too easy in some areas.
Didn't see anyone jumping to
and making changes then. <br>
Comments about airplane killer maneuvers are also
uncalled for. Any Masters
pilot should be able to perform integrated roll/loop
maneuvers without
endangering the airplane. Making them good enough to
score 8s and 9s, well
that's a different matter. If you are making
changes to the Masters
pattern and keeping its role as a destination class,
I firmly believe it should
contain <u>state of the art</u> pattern maneuvers.<br>
<br>
John Gayer<br>
District 6 Advanced pilot<br>
<br>
<br>
On 9/22/2010 4:10 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Dave, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">You
are correct in that everyone is impacted on a
short vs long schedule - my apologies for the
definition of who is impacted.
Regardless, please voice your opinion to your
District VP.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">-Derek<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times
New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On
Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Dave Burton <<a
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">burtona@atmc.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Derek,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">I really object to your
definition of who has “Skin in the
game” - <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">We
all do if we pay our
dues and attend contest</span></b>.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">The “skin” is the impact
of a long vs. short sequence
for every Masters flyer, Flyer who will be
flying Masters in the next two
years, every flyer/non flyer who judges at a
contest, and every other flyer in
all the other class who have to wait until
the typically large Masters class
finishes whatever sequence they fly.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">So, whether I fly Masters
in the next two years or not, I intend
to let my opinion be known to my district VP
and I expect him to give my view
the same weight of any other opinion from
“Masters” flyers or
others. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">This is an issue that
should not be decided by only
“Masters” flyers.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dave Burton</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border-right: medium none;
border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style:
solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;
border-color: -moz-use-text-color;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On
Behalf Of </span></b>Derek Koopowitz<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Wednesday, September 22,
2010 5:31 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
<st1:personname w:st="on">General pattern
discussion</st1:personname></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
[NSRCA-discussion]
Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and
beyond<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font color="black"
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">Over
10 months ago the NSRCA Sequence Committee
completed its work on the new
sequences. These were posted on the NSRCA
website for review and comment
- see below:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><a
href="http://nsrca.us/proposedsequences/2011sequences.html"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://nsrca.us/proposedsequences/2011sequences.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Included
in
all this material was a draft document
that outlined the process on how
sequences are developed, tested and
approved and the makeup/content of the
sequences based on the class it is
meant to serve. This document is
titled
"NSRCA Procedures, Standards and
Guidelines for AMA R/C Precision
Aerobatics Sequence Development". A
mouthful, but it does outline a
lot of information. It details the
charter for the Sequence Committee,
sequence development standards and
guidelines for all classes, catalog of
maneuvers for all classes and the
process that the NSRCA will follow in
designing, testing and approving
changes to sequences, or for proposed
sequences. These sequence development
standards and guidelines have been
in place for about 4 years now and
have been used very successfully to
build
the current set of sequences that
everyone is flying today, in addition
to the
prior Masters sequence (and the new
one as well).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Overall
we
received positive comments on the
proposed sequences from Sportsman
through
Masters. As you know, there were two
sequences developed for Masters, a
long sequence using the standard 23
maneuver count and a short sequence
using
19 maneuvers. In the time since we
posted the sequences, some informal
surveys were also made on the NSRCA
website as well as on RCU asking for a
preference of either the short or long
Masters schedule. The overwhelming
majority of respondents chose the
short sequence. However, these
surveys
were a little flawed in that we didn't
really know who was voting for them -
were they all judges/pilots who voted
because they didn't want to judge a
long
sequence, or were they really current
and/or future Masters pilots that
really
did want to fly a shorter sequence.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Since
the
release of the proposed schedules, and
some post Nats comments, the
sequence committee has been hard at
work making some tweaks to the short
schedule with a view to increasing the
difficulty level of the short Masters
sequence to bring it into line with
the long Masters sequence and also to
ensure that we weren't lowering the
bar in difficulty by introducing a
shorter
sequence. Bear in mind that the short
sequence is only 19 maneuvers (17
of them flyable) so raising the
difficulty level is a challenge if one
is to
avoid using some existing F3A type
maneuvers, or "airplane killers",
and to only use maneuvers that match
the philosophy that we've embraced for
a
number of years. Since we've never
developed a short Masters sequence, we
need to make sure we get it right and
that it not only provides a challenge
to
those that fly it but that it still
provides a somewhat relatively higher
jump
for those pilots that are moving up
from Advanced. We realize that
creating a perfect schedule is not
going to happen - we won't be able to
please
every pilot that moves up from
Advanced, nor will we be able to
please some
former F3A pilots that think the
schedule is too easy and isn't enough
of a
challenge. There has to be a balance.
The Sequence Committee came
up with some good positive changes and
these are being vetted/tested as I
write
this. They've received extremely
positive feedback from everyone that
has
either flown the newer short sequence
on a simulator or using their pattern
plane at the field. By the end of
this weekend we'll know for sure
whether it is a keeper or not.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">When
we
do post the revised sequence I would
like all of you that have "skin in
this game", meaning you are a current
Masters pilot or will be moving to
Masters in the next year or two, to
please contact your NSRCA District VP
and
let them know what your preference is
- short or long sequence. The
reason they need to know is that the
NSRCA board will vote in the next
couple
of weeks to approve all the proposed
sequences and also to select which
sequence
the Masters class will be flying in
2011/2012.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">The
Sequence
Committee is comprised of Joe
Lachowski, Dave Lockhart, Verne
Koester,
Bill Glaze, Archie Stafford, and
Richard Lewis. They've put in an
extraordinary amount of work on these
sequences and documentation and
deserve
huge kudos from everyone! Thanks guys
- your work is very much
appreciated!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><font
color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">We've
also
created a Sequence Committee section
on the NSRCA website which will have
more information soon. It will
contain the updated draft
documentation
and all the proposed sequences in one
location. You can get to the new
section from the main menu - just look
for Sequence Committee - it is near
the
bottom of the menu.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">No
virus found in this incoming message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a
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moz-do-not-send="true">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database:
271.1.1/3152 - Release Date: 09/22/10
02:34:00</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="Times
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<pre wrap=""><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">NSRCA-discussion mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre><font color="black" face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<pre wrap="">
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</o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></blockquote>
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