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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>That’s really an arrogant, condescending statement!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Now I see why elitist pattern flyers have such a bad reputation
at local flying fields!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joe Lachowski<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> NSRCA Discussion List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Who
in there right mind would want to fly a pig of a Focus in Masters. Get
real.<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From: burtona@atmc.net<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 08:14:22 -0400<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>How about an 11 lb 8 oz. electric Focus 2 flying in Masters
class? How much more would that cost?</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
Pavlick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hmm, how about a biplane with 6000 mAh batteries. It will
cost more because, well, it has 2 wings not just 1. </span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> The
“bigger” batteries will obviously cost more than what we’re
using now. Not too hard to figure this stuff out…</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>John Pavlick</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>http://www.idseng.com</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave
Burton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 23, 2010 7:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Not trying to debate Dave, only trying to understand.</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If the 2M rule stays the same, and the noise limit stays the
same, but the weight limit is increased or eliminated, what specific components
are going to increase in cost as a result and why?</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>What will be the cost drivers?</span><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>As sure as you and others seem to be that cost will increase due
to the weight limit change, I’d like to have your thoughts on the
specifics of what and why.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dave Burton</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 23, 2010 1:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Dave B,</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I’m not going to debate whether your paraphrased quote is an
answer or not……that aspect is not relevant.</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>“Always has in the past” is nothing other than
historical fact.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>“Always will in the future” is a prediction based on
what if scenarios from the past are repeated.</span><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>The NSRCA archives have exhaustive detailed discussions on both, as
well as the results of multiple surveys for which the majority did not favor a
weight increase or elimination of the weight limit for all classes.</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Regards,</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><br>
Dave L</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave
Burton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 23, 2010 1:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>So Dave, Tell us exactly what is going to make the cost go
up. </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>“Always has in the past and always will in the
future” is not an answer.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 23, 2010 1:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>…nor increasing cost yet again</span><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Dave</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Derek
Koopowitz<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 23, 2010 1:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Tony,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>This
issue has come up time and time again... they just aren't interested in
changing the way it is currently done, nor in increasing the weight.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>-Derek<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>On
Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 10:11 AM, Tony <<a href="mailto:tony@radiosouthrc.com">tony@radiosouthrc.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Derek:<br>
My take on Mike’s point was that they should weigh models without the
batteries for the motor. I don’t think he was asking about
increasing the weight. I believe there are other FAI events where the
batteries are removed when the models are weighed, so this is not a new concept
to them.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Tony Stillman, President</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Radio South, Inc.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>139 Altama Connector, Box 322</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Brunswick, GA 31525</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>1-800-962-7802</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><a href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com/" target="_blank">www.radiosouthrc.com</a></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Derek Koopowitz<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 23, 2010 12:37 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Mike,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>I've
talked at length about the weight issue with the other F3A representatives and
there wasn't much support at all for increasing the weight limits.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>-Derek<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>On
Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Dr Mike <<a
href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net">drmikedds@sbcglobal.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I think all of that is too complicated. As you are all
aware, it is really FAI rules that is the problem. I recommend we urge
our FAI rep to change the rule to weigh airplanes without batteries. This
argument has been presented before, but I think it needs to be pressed.
Batteries are just fuel. A fuel weight limit could be imposed. I
fly IC and loaded with fuel it is 12 lbs 4oz at least. All of this is
old, old news, but it should be pressed, I believe. </span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Mike </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Keith Hoard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 23, 2010 9:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Perhaps another compromise would be
to raise the weight limit to 11.5 or 12 lbs., then have a weight penalty that
starts at 11lbs and increases hyperbolically up to the max weight. <br>
<br>
It could start at 2% at 11lb 1oz., 5% at 11 lb., 2oz., 7% at 11lb. 3oz.,
on up to 40% score reduction at 12 lbs.<br>
<br>
This rule wouldn't affect anyone at local contests nor guys who aren't
in the hunt for hardware at the Nats. The top guys at the Nats wouldn't have to
worry about being DQ'd for weight HOWEVER if you want to stay in the top you
better have a light airplane. . . or be able to fly 40% better than everyone
else . . <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>On
Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Dave <<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Tim,</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Yep…time will tell. This topic has been a debate for
many years….and the “cushion” is the best idea/compromise I
have seen since the weight became a limiting factor.</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Regards,</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:navy'><br>
Dave</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tim Taylor<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 22, 2010 12:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>At this point we'll agree to disagree. The "cushion rule"
is a good thing and might just achieve what I want while maintaining the
spirit of the rules that you want.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Time will tell.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Lively discussion and debate brings out points from all
sides the other might not have thought of.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I enjoy it and often learn from it.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Tim<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Sun, 8/22/10, <a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net">davel322@comcast.net</a>
<i><<a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net">davel322@comcast.net</a>></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
From: <a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net">davel322@comcast.net</a> <<a
href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net">davel322@comcast.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 12:07 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Tim,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I'm well aware of where the
rules changes came from (FAI), and how they were followed by AMA, and it
changes nothing with respect to my original point. When the limits have
increased, increased costs have followed without exception.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Pattern planes are quiet because
we have a noise rule...even though it is not enforced locally.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Pattern planes are limited in
cost because we have limits...and the most competitive are the most costly -
that will never change. Increase the limits, and the costs for the
most competitive setups will increase - it always has, and it always will.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>The current proposal to allow a
"cushion" to the weight limit in the lower classes is I think a
good idea. For the FAI based designs (the vast majority), the
lightest and most expensive equipment will not have to be used.
For the AMA based designs (very few in number), planes will still be
designed to meet 11 lbs and therefore an increase in size/weight/expense is
very unlikely to happen.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Dave L</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:black'><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Tim Taylor" <<a href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com">timsautopro@yahoo.com</a>><br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 8:25:18 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>One minor detail that throws a wrench into the history
and today.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>All 4 of those changes that made huge changes in
our sport were from the top down.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> FAI made those changes and we have what we have
today.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The change we're talking about only effects the US in
AMA classes, not FAI.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>There are no pattern kits currently being designed and built
in mass in the USA. Even if they were they'd likely be designed by guys in
FAI. They will NOT design an airplane that cannot compete at the FAI level.
It just wont happen.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>What harm can it do if I build a Focus2 in Elect and
show up 1/2 pound over weight? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>None.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>What harm will it do if an Advance flier shows up with a
2 year old airplane bought from an FAI pilot and he has heavier batteries
or repairs have now made the airplane over weight? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>None.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Will you have a guy show up with a 50cc 2x2 3d
monster from time to time? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Yes, <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>does it matter?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> No.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> He won't pass the noise test anyway. :)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Can any CD here honestly tell me that they'll turn a
pilot down at a contest (Besides the nats) because he's 3 oz over weight?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I doubt it, <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Tim<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
--- On <b>Fri, 8/20/10, Dave <i><<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;
padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:
5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
From: Dave <<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>><br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<br>
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Friday, August 20, 2010, 5:54 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Just noticed
this didn’t make it to the list the first time……was too
big with all the RE:RE:RE:RE (trimmed now). And…I’m off
to a contest! </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;
color:navy'>J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Dave</span> <br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> Dave [mailto:<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 20, 2010 10:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>This whole discussion is one
where history really does speak volumes –</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>In short, there has always been a
limiting factor (whether size, weight, power, noise). That limit has
always been pushed by the top level competitors, and the top level stuff is
always the most expensive, and it offers a competitive advantage over
cheaper setups. And the masses (certainly 90+% anyway) follow the
guys at the top.</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>In short, everytime a limiting
factor has been increased (for whatever reasons), the size, cost, expense,
etc has increased. Cheaper options are available now, and they are
not as competitive. Change the rules, and cheaper options will still
be available and still not be as competitive as the new standard that will
be achieved by the top level competitors that push the new limits. In
the last 20 or so years, I’ve seen this cycle about 4 times.
There is no magical rule or formula that will change this for open
competition…the cycle will repeat every time a limit is raised.</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Regards,</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Dave</span> <br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ed Alt<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 20, 2010 1:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> NSRCA List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
I should have checked my building noes first - it was actually 10 lbs 4
oz. But I'm not a professional builder either. Point is, it can
be done within the existing rules. You just have to get past the idea
that it can't be done.<br>
</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
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<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Keith Hoard<br>
Collierville, TN<br>
<a href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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