Perhaps another compromise would be to raise the weight limit to 11.5 or 12 lbs., then have a weight penalty that starts at 11lbs and increases hyperbolically up to the max weight. <br><br> It could start at 2% at 11lb 1oz., 5% at 11 lb., 2oz., 7% at 11lb. 3oz., on up to 40% score reduction at 12 lbs.<br>
<br> This rule wouldn't affect anyone at local contests nor guys who aren't in the hunt for hardware at the Nats. The top guys at the Nats wouldn't have to worry about being DQ'd for weight HOWEVER if you want to stay in the top you better have a light airplane. . . or be able to fly 40% better than everyone else . . <br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Dave <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Tim,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Yep…time will tell. This topic has been a
debate for many years….and the “cushion” is the best idea/compromise I have
seen since the weight became a limiting factor.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Regards,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><br>
Dave</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
<hr size="2" align="center" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Tim Taylor<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, August 22, 2010
12:29 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
FW: weight difference</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Dave,</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">At this point we'll agree to disagree. The
"cushion rule" is a good thing and might just achieve what I want
while maintaining the spirit of the rules that you want.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Time will tell.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Lively discussion and debate brings out points from
all sides the other might not have thought of.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I enjoy it and often learn from it.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Tim<br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sun, 8/22/10, <a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net" target="_blank">davel322@comcast.net</a> <i><span style="font-style: italic;"><<a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net" target="_blank">davel322@comcast.net</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
From: <a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net" target="_blank">davel322@comcast.net</a> <<a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net" target="_blank">davel322@comcast.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 12:07 PM</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Tim,</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">I'm well aware of
where the rules changes came from (FAI), and how they were followed by AMA,
and it changes nothing with respect to my original point. When the
limits have increased, increased costs have followed without exception.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Pattern planes are
quiet because we have a noise rule...even though it is not enforced locally.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Pattern planes are
limited in cost because we have limits...and the most competitive are the
most costly - that will never change. Increase the limits, and the
costs for the most competitive setups will increase - it always has, and it
always will.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">The current proposal
to allow a "cushion" to the weight limit in the lower classes is I
think a good idea. For the FAI based designs (the vast majority),
the lightest and most expensive equipment will not have to be
used. For the AMA based designs (very few in number), planes will
still be designed to meet 11 lbs and therefore an increase in
size/weight/expense is very unlikely to happen.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Regards,</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Dave L</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Tim Taylor" <<a href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com" target="_blank">timsautopro@yahoo.com</a>><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 8:25:18 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference</span></font></p>
</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
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<td style="padding: 0in;" valign="top">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Dave,</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">One minor detail that throws a wrench into the
history and today.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">All 4 of those changes that made huge changes
in our sport were from the top down.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> FAI made those changes and we have what we
have today.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">The change we're talking about only effects the US in AMA
classes, not FAI.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">There are no pattern kits currently being designed
and built in mass in the USA.
Even if they were they'd likely be designed by guys in FAI. They will NOT
design an airplane that cannot compete at the FAI level. It just wont
happen.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">What harm can it do if I build a Focus2 in Elect
and show up 1/2 pound over weight? </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">None.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">What harm will it do if an Advance flier shows up
with a 2 year old airplane bought from an FAI pilot and he has heavier
batteries or repairs have now made the airplane over weight? </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">None.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Will you have a guy show up with a 50cc 2x2
3d monster from time to time? </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Yes, </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">does it matter?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> No.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> He won't pass the noise test anyway. :)</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Can any CD here honestly tell me that they'll turn
a pilot down at a contest (Besides the nats) because he's 3 oz over weight?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I doubt it, </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Tim</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
--- On <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Fri, 8/20/10, Dave <i><span style="font-style: italic;"><<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" target="_blank">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(16, 16, 255); padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
From: Dave <<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" target="_blank">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>><br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<br>
To: "'General pattern discussion'"
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Friday, August 20, 2010, 5:54 PM</span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Just
noticed this didn’t make it to the list the first time……was too big with
all the RE:RE:RE:RE (trimmed now). And…I’m off to a contest! </span></font><font size="2" color="navy" face="Wingdings"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: navy;">J</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<p><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Dave</span></font>
</p>
<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
<hr size="2" align="center" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Dave
[mailto:<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" target="_blank">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, August 20, 2010
10:17 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> 'General pattern
discussion'<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">This
whole discussion is one where history really does speak volumes –</span></font>
</p>
<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">In
short, there has always been a limiting factor (whether size, weight,
power, noise). That limit has always been pushed by the top level
competitors, and the top level stuff is always the most expensive, and it
offers a competitive advantage over cheaper setups. And the masses
(certainly 90+% anyway) follow the guys at the top.</span></font> </p>
<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">In
short, everytime a limiting factor has been increased (for whatever
reasons), the size, cost, expense, etc has increased. Cheaper options
are available now, and they are not as competitive. Change the rules,
and cheaper options will still be available and still not be as competitive
as the new standard that will be achieved by the top level competitors that
push the new limits. In the last 20 or so years, I’ve seen this cycle
about 4 times. There is no magical rule or formula that will change
this for open competition…the cycle will repeat every time a limit is
raised.</span></font> </p>
<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Regards,</span></font>
</p>
<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Dave</span></font>
</p>
<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
<hr size="2" align="center" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Ed Alt<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, August 20, 2010
1:55 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> NSRCA List<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"><br>
I should have checked my building noes first - it was actually 10 lbs 4
oz. But I'm not a professional builder either. Point is, it can
be done within the existing rules. You just have to get past the idea
that it can't be done.<br>
</span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----</span></font></p>
<div>
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NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font></p>
</div>
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<br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><br>Keith Hoard<br>Collierville, TN<br>
<a href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</a><br><br><br>