I meant that the 40% penalty wouldn't kick in until the weight was up around 14 - 16 oz. over. Weights from 1oz. to 9oz. over would gradually rise from 2-7% penalty. . . <br><br>I'm just "spitballing" numbers here for the concept. The actual numbers could be debated at length later. Perhaps a graph of some sort?<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 10:14 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: arial;"><font color="black" face="arial"></font>Vince I think the spirit is right but 40% is too much....I prefer the following, posted earlier:</div>
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<div style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: arial;">If we must keep weight checking at the Nats, I do not favor disqualification of any overweight plane and the scores it earned. That is too harsh a punishment. Rather, I favor a penalty, something like dropping scores by 2-5% or dropping the high round score, or something like that.</div>
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<div style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: arial;">The penalty idea has been re-hashed before. <span style="display: inline-block;"></span>5% max penalty is enough penalty to affect about the top 10 places in either Masters or F3A. That's all that really matters in regard to Nats trophies</div>
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<div>regards</div>
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<div>MattK<br>
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-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Vicente "Vince" Bortone <<a href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" target="_blank">vicenterc@comcast.net</a>><br>
To: General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Mon, Aug 23, 2010 10:39 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<br>
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<div><span>Keith,</span></div>
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<div><span>Great idea. </span></div>
<div><span><br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
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----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Keith Hoard" <<a href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com" target="_blank">khoard@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 9:35:17 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<br>
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Perhaps another compromise would be to raise the weight limit to 11.5 or 12 lbs., then have a weight penalty that starts at 11lbs and increases hyperbolically up to the max weight. <br>
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It could start at 2% at 11lb 1oz., 5% at 11 lb., 2oz., 7% at 11lb. 3oz., on up to 40% score reduction at 12 lbs.<br>
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This rule wouldn't affect anyone at local contests nor guys who aren't in the hunt for hardware at the Nats. The top guys at the Nats wouldn't have to worry about being DQ'd for weight HOWEVER if you want to stay in the top you better have a light airplane. . . or be able to fly 40% better than everyone else . . <br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Dave <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" target="_blank">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Tim,</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Yep…time will tell. This topic has been a debate for many years….and the “cushion” is the best idea/compromise I have seen since the weight became a limiting factor.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Regards,</span></font></div>
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Dave</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Tim Taylor<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, August 22, 2010 12:29 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">At this point we'll agree to disagree. The "cushion rule" is a good thing and might just achieve what I want while maintaining the spirit of the rules that you want.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Time will tell.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Lively discussion and debate brings out points from all sides the other might not have thought of.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I enjoy it and often learn from it.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Tim<br>
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--- On <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sun, 8/22/10, <a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net" target="_blank">davel322@comcast.net</a> <i><span style="font-style: italic;"><<a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net" target="_blank">davel322@comcast.net</a>></span></i></span></b> wrote:</span></font></div>
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From: <a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net" target="_blank">davel322@comcast.net</a> <<a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net" target="_blank">davel322@comcast.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 12:07 PM</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: Arial;">Tim,</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: Arial;">I'm well aware of where the rules changes came from (FAI), and how they were followed by AMA, and it changes nothing with respect to my original point. When the limits have increased, increased costs have followed without exception.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: Arial;">Pattern planes are quiet because we have a noise rule...even though it is not enforced locally.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: Arial;">Pattern planes are limited in cost because we have limits...and the most competitive are the most costly - that will never change. Increase the limits, and the costs for the most competitive setups will increase - it always has, and it always will.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: Arial;">The current proposal to allow a "cushion" to the weight limit in the lower classes is I think a good idea. For the FAI based designs (the vast majority), the lightest and most expensive equipment will not have to be used. For the AMA based designs (very few in number), planes will still be designed to meet 11 lbs and therefore an increase in size/weight/expense is very unlikely to happen.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: Arial;">Regards,</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black; font-family: Arial;">Dave L</span></font></div>
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----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Tim Taylor" <<a href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com" target="_blank">timsautopro@yahoo.com</a>><br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 8:25:18 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Dave,</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">One minor detail that throws a wrench into the history and today.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">All 4 of those changes that made huge changes in our sport were from the top down.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> FAI made those changes and we have what we have today.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">The change we're talking about only effects the US in AMA classes, not FAI.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">There are no pattern kits currently being designed and built in mass in the USA. Even if they were they'd likely be designed by guys in FAI. They will NOT design an airplane that cannot compete at the FAI level. It just wont happen.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">What harm can it do if I build a Focus2 in Elect and show up 1/2 pound over weight? </span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">None.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></font> </div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">What harm will it do if an Advance flier shows up with a 2 year old airplane bought from an FAI pilot and he has heavier batteries or repairs have now made the airplane over weight? </span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">None.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Will you have a guy show up with a 50cc 2x2 3d monster from time to time? </span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Yes, </span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">does it matter?</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> No.</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> He won't pass the noise test anyway. :)</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Can any CD here honestly tell me that they'll turn a pilot down at a contest (Besides the nats) because he's 3 oz over weight?</span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I doubt it, </span></font></div>
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<div class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Tim</span></font></div>
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--- On <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Fri, 8/20/10, Dave <i><span style="font-style: italic;"><<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" target="_blank">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>></span></i></span></b> wrote:</span></font></div>
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From: Dave <<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" target="_blank">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>><br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<br>
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Friday, August 20, 2010, 5:54 PM</span></font></div>
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<div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Just noticed this didn’t make it to the list the first time……was too big with all the RE:RE:RE:RE (trimmed now). And…I’m off to a contest! </span></font><font size="2" color="navy" face="Wingdings"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Wingdings;">J</span></font></div>
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<div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Dave</span></font> </div>
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<div><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Dave [mailto:<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" target="_blank">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, August 20, 2010 10:17 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span></font></div>
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<div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></div>
<div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">This whole discussion is one where history really does speak volumes –</span></font> </div>
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<div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">In short, there has always been a limiting factor (whether size, weight, power, noise). That limit has always been pushed by the top level competitors, and the top level stuff is always the most expensive, and it offers a competitive advantage over cheaper setups. And the masses (certainly 90+% anyway) follow the guys at the top.</span></font> </div>
<div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></div>
<div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">In short, everytime a limiting factor has been increased (for whatever reasons), the size, cost, expense, etc has increased. Cheaper options are available now, and they are not as competitive. Change the rules, and cheaper options will still be available and still not be as competitive as the new standard that will be achieved by the top level competitors that push the new limits. In the last 20 or so years, I’ve seen this cycle about 4 times. There is no magical rule or formula that will change this for open competition…the cycle will repeat every time a limit is raised.</span></font> </div>
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<div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Regards,</span></font> </div>
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<div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Dave</span></font> </div>
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<div><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Ed Alt<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, August 20, 2010 1:55 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> NSRCA List<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span></font></div>
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I should have checked my building noes first - it was actually 10 lbs 4 oz. But I'm not a professional builder either. Point is, it can be done within the existing rules. You just have to get past the idea that it can't be done.<br>
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Keith Hoard<br>
Collierville, TN<br>
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<div style="font-size: 12px; margin: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><pre style="font-size: 9pt;"><tt>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a> </tt></pre>
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<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><br>Keith Hoard<br>Collierville, TN<br>
<a href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com">khoard@gmail.com</a><br><br><br>