Mike,<div><br></div><div>I've talked at length about the weight issue with the other F3A representatives and there wasn't much support at all for increasing the weight limits.</div><div><br></div><div>-Derek<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Dr Mike <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net">drmikedds@sbcglobal.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I think all of that is too complicated. As you are all aware,
it is really FAI rules that is the problem. I recommend we urge our FAI rep to
change the rule to weigh airplanes without batteries. This argument has been presented
before, but I think it needs to be pressed. Batteries are just fuel. A fuel
weight limit could be imposed. I fly IC and loaded with fuel it is 12 lbs 4oz
at least. All of this is old, old news, but it should be pressed, I believe. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Mike </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Keith
Hoard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 23, 2010 9:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> Perhaps another
compromise would be to raise the weight limit to 11.5 or 12 lbs., then have a
weight penalty that starts at 11lbs and increases hyperbolically up to the max
weight. <br>
<br>
It could start at 2% at 11lb 1oz., 5% at 11 lb., 2oz., 7% at 11lb. 3oz.,
on up to 40% score reduction at 12 lbs.<br>
<br>
This rule wouldn't affect anyone at local contests nor guys who aren't
in the hunt for hardware at the Nats. The top guys at the Nats wouldn't have to
worry about being DQ'd for weight HOWEVER if you want to stay in the top you
better have a light airplane. . . or be able to fly 40% better than everyone
else . . </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Dave <<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" target="_blank">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Tim,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Yep…time
will tell. This topic has been a debate for many years….and the “cushion”
is the best idea/compromise I have seen since the weight became a limiting
factor.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy"><br>
Dave</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy"> </span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Tim
Taylor<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 22, 2010 12:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
<tbody><tr>
<td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dave,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">At
this point we'll agree to disagree. The "cushion rule" is a good
thing and might just achieve what I want while maintaining the spirit of the
rules that you want.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Time
will tell.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Lively
discussion and debate brings out points from all sides the other might not
have thought of.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I
enjoy it and often learn from it.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tim<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Sun, 8/22/10, <a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net" target="_blank">davel322@comcast.net</a>
<i><<a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net" target="_blank">davel322@comcast.net</a>></i></b>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
From: <a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net" target="_blank">davel322@comcast.net</a>
<<a href="mailto:davel322@comcast.net" target="_blank">davel322@comcast.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 12:07 PM</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Tim,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I'm well aware of where
the rules changes came from (FAI), and how they were followed by AMA, and it
changes nothing with respect to my original point. When the limits have
increased, increased costs have followed without exception.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Pattern planes are quiet
because we have a noise rule...even though it is not enforced locally.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Pattern planes are
limited in cost because we have limits...and the most competitive are the
most costly - that will never change. Increase the limits, and the
costs for the most competitive setups will increase - it always has, and it
always will.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">The current proposal to
allow a "cushion" to the weight limit in the lower classes is I
think a good idea. For the FAI based designs (the vast majority),
the lightest and most expensive equipment will not have to be
used. For the AMA based designs (very few in number), planes will
still be designed to meet 11 lbs and therefore an increase in
size/weight/expense is very unlikely to happen.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Dave L</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black"><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Tim Taylor" <<a href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com" target="_blank">timsautopro@yahoo.com</a>><br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 8:25:18 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference</span></p>
</div>
<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
<tbody><tr>
<td valign="top" style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dave,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">One minor detail that throws a wrench into the history and today.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">All 4 of those changes that made huge changes in our sport were
from the top down.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> FAI made those changes and we have what we have today.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The change we're talking about only effects the US in AMA classes,
not FAI.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There are no pattern kits currently being designed and built in mass
in the USA. Even if they were they'd likely be designed by guys in FAI.
They will NOT design an airplane that cannot compete at the FAI level. It
just wont happen.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What harm can it do if I build a Focus2 in Elect and show up 1/2
pound over weight? </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">None.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What harm will it do if an Advance flier shows up with a 2 year old
airplane bought from an FAI pilot and he has heavier batteries or repairs
have now made the airplane over weight? </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">None.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Will you have a guy show up with a 50cc 2x2 3d monster from
time to time? </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes, </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">does it matter?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> No.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> He won't pass the noise test anyway. :)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Can any CD here honestly tell me that they'll turn a pilot down at a
contest (Besides the nats) because he's 3 oz over weight?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I doubt it, </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tim</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
--- On <b>Fri, 8/20/10, Dave <i><<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" target="_blank">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>></i></b> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(16, 16, 255)">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
From: Dave <<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" target="_blank">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>><br>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight difference<br>
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Friday, August 20, 2010, 5:54 PM</p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Just noticed this didn’t make it to the list the first
time……was too big with all the RE:RE:RE:RE (trimmed now). And…I’m off
to a contest! </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:navy">J</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
</blockquote>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Dave</span> </p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</div>
<p><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Dave [mailto:<a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" target="_blank">DaveL322@comcast.net</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 20, 2010 10:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span></p>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">This whole discussion is one where history really does speak
volumes –</span> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">In short, there has always been a limiting factor (whether
size, weight, power, noise). That limit has always been pushed by the
top level competitors, and the top level stuff is always the most
expensive, and it offers a competitive advantage over cheaper setups.
And the masses (certainly 90+% anyway) follow the guys at the top.</span>
</p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">In short, everytime a limiting factor has been increased (for
whatever reasons), the size, cost, expense, etc has increased.
Cheaper options are available now, and they are not as competitive.
Change the rules, and cheaper options will still be available and
still not be as competitive as the new standard that will be achieved by
the top level competitors that push the new limits. In the last 20 or
so years, I’ve seen this cycle about 4 times. There is no magical
rule or formula that will change this for open competition…the cycle will
repeat every time a limit is raised.</span> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Regards,</span> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:navy">Dave</span> </p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</div>
<p><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Ed Alt<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 20, 2010 1:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> NSRCA List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span></p>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
I should have checked my building noes first - it was actually 10 lbs 4
oz. But I'm not a professional builder either. Point is, it can
be done within the existing rules. You just have to get past the idea
that it can't be done.<br>
</span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Keith Hoard<br>
Collierville, TN<br>
<a href="mailto:khoard@gmail.com" target="_blank">khoard@gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
</p>
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