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<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>Dave,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>Just want to summarize my earlier post. The weight
issue is not a driving force in costs in my opinion and experience. It is
peoples building time and also the desire to fly what the winners fly that are
far stronger influencers. I remember all the customer pressure to find a
way to lower our plane prices or keep them down. This was not just when
selling Aries for $450 but Symphonys at $850. These planes are top
competitors, having placed 1st in Intermediate, 1st in Advanced, made
finals in Masters and FAI. Then Oxai and the CA Genesis arrived on
the scene and 10X of these were sold in the next season than we sold in total
and these planes were $2000 and up. Deep pockets are available and in
business, that's where the suppliers will go. There are still low cost
options that are very competitive that make weight, but they are kits and not
ARFs. You will never see the top pilots flying them because they will be
flying higher margin planes that can be assembled quickly. Weight is just
not a factor.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title="mailto:burtona@atmc.net CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 20, 2010 10:15 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight
difference</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Good
food for thought too John,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">And
I don’t want to pound the weight issue either so this will be my last post on
the issue.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
don’t really care what the weight limit is because I’ll either build to it or
ignore it and not fly at the Nats. But some things need to be considered I
believe.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"
class=MsoListParagraph><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN
style="mso-list: Ignore">1.<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Does
the current weight limit drive cost up or down unnecessarily? I believe
up.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"
class=MsoListParagraph><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN
style="mso-list: Ignore">2.<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Are
we keeping some people from participating with the weight limit or the weight
driven cost? I don’t know but I’d rather see as few as possible impediments to
participation.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"
class=MsoListParagraph><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN
style="mso-list: Ignore">3.<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">There
is an obvious inequity between the way GP and EP planes are weighed. It’s ok if
a GP plane has a legal takeoff weight of 12 ½ lbs but an EP plane must weigh 11
lbs at take off. It’s an FAI issue but it’s also an AMA issue for the AMA
classes. We can’t fix the FAI issue but we can fix the AMA side if we want
to.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"
class=MsoListParagraph><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN
style="mso-list: Ignore">4.<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">If
we are going to make a rule change for the lower classes then we should make it
for all AMA classes. I wouldn’t want to see someone not fly a higher class
because his now legal plane will be illegal in the higher
class.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">OK,
my $0.02<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>John
Fuqua<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 20, 2010 10:37 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'General
pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight
difference<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Food
for thought. Unless we want to have an FAI F3A event with only a few
dedicated participants like some control line and free flight events now, you
need to provide for growth and pathways to the top. If AMA diverges
from what FAI does very much then that is the path we would be on.
If we as a community decide that we do not care about F3A and world
championships than we could go down any path but expect division within the
ranks.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> For
those that keep pounding weight please look at the proposal RCA 11-10CP-1 (which
passed the interim vote and will likely pass the final) which will allow more
weight in the classes below Masters. I think this will address
most (not all but most) of the issues this latest thread has
discussed. AS to the cost and participation, I have heard the same
arguments for the last 20 years and guess what – They NEVER go away no matter
what is done. I remember when we allowed Novice (Sportsman) to
fly anything. Resulted in nothing positive (except maybe scaring
everyone). We have tried different things but everyone really
wants to fly what the big dogs fly cause that is the competiveness in our
nature. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">If
you add up the expense of going to contests I would argue that the cost of the
equipment is not that out of line.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Dave
Burton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 20, 2010 7:13 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'General
pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight
difference<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">OK,
I got it now. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Change
the rule back to a 10cc engine limit and all our problems will be
solved.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Airplanes
will be smaller and cost less, engines will cost $150-$175, planes cost under
$200, you will only need a 4 channel $150 radio.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
think your logic of why cost escalated is flawed.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">What
drove cost up was the change to turn around pattern. The primary reason for
turnaround style as I remember from the time was to reduce the noise footprint.
This change started the development of new planes designed for the new style
which demanded more power to fly well. It’s the 2 meter limit and the noise
limit that keeps cost down or we would be flying 40% gas powered planes that
weigh 45 lbs and cost 4 times what our 2M ships cost. The 5kg limit only drives
cost up. Lighter stuff cost more than heavy stuff in every component of the
planes we fly.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
2M limit also limits the practical weight of the planes in order to be
competitive. An 11 lb. Plane is going to fly better than a 14 lb plane. So why
would you care if someone brings a 14 lb plane to a contest? If you really want
to level the playing field then a minimum weight would be a better
way.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">NSRCA
really needs to be looking at ways to be more inclusive and attract new
contestants. Keeping the rules as they are will insure that pattern keeps
getting more expensive and a shrinking event. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dave<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 20, 2010 5:55 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'General
pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] FW: weight
difference<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Just
noticed this didn’t make it to the list the first time……was too big with all the
RE:RE:RE:RE (trimmed now). And…I’m off to a contest! </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">J</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Dave
[mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 20, 2010 10:17
AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">This
whole discussion is one where history really does speak volumes
–<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">In
short, there has always been a limiting factor (whether size, weight, power,
noise). That limit has always been pushed by the top level competitors,
and the top level stuff is always the most expensive, and it offers a
competitive advantage over cheaper setups. And the masses (certainly 90+%
anyway) follow the guys at the top.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">In
short, everytime a limiting factor has been increased (for whatever reasons),
the size, cost, expense, etc has increased. Cheaper options are available
now, and they are not as competitive. Change the rules, and cheaper
options will still be available and still not be as competitive as the new
standard that will be achieved by the top level competitors that push the new
limits. In the last 20 or so years, I’ve seen this cycle about 4
times. There is no magical rule or formula that will change this for open
competition…the cycle will repeat every time a limit is
raised.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Ed
Alt<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 20, 2010 1:55 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight
difference</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>I should have
checked my building noes first - it was actually 10 lbs 4 oz. But I'm not
a professional builder either. Point is, it can be done within the
existing rules. You just have to get past the idea that it can't be
done.<BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">No virus
found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<BR>Version:
9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3083 - Release Date: 08/20/10
02:35:00</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">No virus
found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<BR>Version:
9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3083 - Release Date: 08/20/10
14:35:00</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P>
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