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<BR>I should have checked my building noes first - it was actually 10 lbs 4 oz. But I'm not a professional builder either. Point is, it can be done within the existing rules. You just have to get past the idea that it can't be done.<BR>
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From: ed_alt@hotmail.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:44:51 -0400<BR><BR>
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Just be careful what you wish for. Anyone who thinks that a higher weight limit will reduce the cost of fielding a 2M model is just kidding themselves. More weight to haul around will only require more power to remain competitive (more expensive motor & controller etc). The answer is to build the airframe light. I did an Integral with a YS CDI for under 10 lbs. I just had a set of light foam wings and tailfeathers done and put on a set of Wistmodel landing gear. Piece of cake.<BR> <BR>
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From: rcpilot@wowway.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:09:36 -0400<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">That can’t be done by the average pattern builder. It requires a high degree of talent and know how. Besides, I wouldn’t call the Integral a robust kit and it is still on the heavy side. Increasing the weight limit and/or eliminating it altogether will only increase the number of kits available. What is the harm in that?</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Ed Alt<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:44 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Calibri size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">You can't build it LIKE a Black Magic much bigger and make weight. Stressed skin balsa/FG laminates are how to do it. I've mentioned this a few times on RCU, but just look at how Wistmodel does it. The CA Integral copies the technique fairly well for the fuselage, but does a mediocre job with the wing structure. If they can do it mostly right for about $1k, that ought to demonstrate how someone can do it 100% right very about the same dollars.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Calibri size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Ed</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A title="mailto:rcpilot@wowway.com CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:rcpilot@wowway.com">Ron Hansen</A> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:19 PM</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</A> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ed, I’m not sure I agree but lets assume you are correct. You can’t build a balsa 2m any bigger than the black magic and make weight. If the volumes get any bigger everyone will be forced to buy high dollar composites built most likely overseas. Not sure that is healthy for the hobby.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Ed Alt<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:05 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Actually, larger fuselage volumes lend themselves very well to good structutal integrity. The inverse applies for skinny stuff. Provided that correct design principles are followed, and that there is good quality control over manufacturing processes, there is no reason for concern with large volume fuselages being strong enough. However, as soon as you raise the weight limit, you then need a beefier structure to carry it. So who wants that?</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxMsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From: rcpilot@wowway.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:53:00 -0400<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I agree Mike. I have a hard time believing that the volume of the planes can get much bigger before they start exploding in the air. Eliminate the weight limit. If the overseas manufacturers keep making planes to meet the 11 lb limit so be it. Some manufacturers in the US may make kits that are better suited for NSRCA and some will not. Either way the selection increases. I’m concerned these planes are getting more and more fragile. This is defeating one of the benefits of going electric (air frame longevity).</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Dr Mike<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:53 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">IMO, the weight limit restriction has driven up the cost of aircraft and made construction more difficult for even an accomplished builder. It also creates a potentially unsafe vessel because of trying to make weight. What is wrong with being innovative? The weight rule is obsolete and restrictive. The planes are becoming cookie-cutter, boring, expensive look alikes that have minute differences. My voice is to make the change. Seems like in all endeavors those that are the loudest are the ones saying NO CHANGE!!!. </SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">My 2 cents.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Atwood, Mark<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:18 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">I actually feel that you’re making my point in a way. When we were restricted by engine displacement the size and weight were not in contention as a limiting factor (though they were, just that without more power, they didn’t come into play).</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">The argument at the time of removing the engine displacement was EXACTLY the one being made today (only internationally instead of just domestically). Which was that engine displacement rule was increasing costs because engine manufacturers were trying to get the last 1% of power out of the existing displacement. Thus the $300 OS Hanno Special which was an outrageous price for a .61 engine. YS was doing the same on the 4 stroke side (another dubious rule change to provide equity between 4 stroke and 2 stroke power plants). </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">So the goal was to allow any engine…thus letting the “average” guy fly a cheaper, but larger displacement engine. Did that work? Is anyone successfully running the ST 2300?? Or did we just get bigger planes that require bigger engines…up until we hit the size/weight limit and now we get back to expensive Engines with more expensive CDI units?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">What I don’t understand is that people don’t think the planes can get any bigger because of the 2m rule. My Arch Nemesis was a FULL 2m airplane in 1997… at 9lbs. We didn’t think they could get any bigger then either. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">All of that said, Contrary to Tim’s experience, I do try hard to listen to members of my district. ALL of them…NOT just the vocal ones that post prolifically on RCU or this list. And there are far more in favor of maintaining the weight rule than eliminating it, or substantially raising it. MOST…and I do mean MOST, really don’t care. “tell me the rules, and I’ll play by them”. That group, and it’s by far the largest group, wants consistency year to year to year. That saves them the most money as they get a much longer lifespan from their investment.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Dave Burton<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:49 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">I couldn’t disagree more.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Two meter rule restricts the size of pattern planes.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Noise rule restricts the impact pattern planes have on neighbors.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Both of these are good rules IMO.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">The present weight limit only drives up the cost and compromises safety.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">It’s one of the reasons people are spending $4,000+ on airframes and driving away people who might fly pattern but aren’t willing/able to due to the cost.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">From the 1930’s rules, we increased the size of planes and engines tremendously and kept a weight rule the same as when we flew .45 – 61 glow engines.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Then we weigh electric planes with fuel, glow planes empty.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Makes no sense!</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Dave Burton</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Atwood, Mark<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:05 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">The challenge here is that rules of this nature, limiting rules, be it in Pattern, Sailing, Stock car, whatever, are NOT in place to restrict the average guy, they’re in place to restrict the innovator. The guys that push the limit.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">In our sport, the “average” guy is stuck pushing the limit because he’s trying to copy and follow the innovators. We all want the triple volumetric 2 meter bird because that’s what Chip/Andrew/Quique and company have pushed the boundary’s too. A prophecy still makes weight with nooooo problem. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">So the problem is simple. IF the rules change, it clearly will help the average guy for a year or two. But then the innovators will once again push the limits (they wouldn’t BE limits if no one was pushing) and we would see new designs that the average guy can’t easily keep within the rules.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Bipes have not really caught on because they’re too difficult to make weight with. Only the very best builders with very few limits on funding for all the best and lightest equipment have made them work. Add a pound and that will very likely change…to where all the top guys can make them work, which will then push the average guy to try and make them work. At the end of the day, all it adds is cost as we obsolete a whole generation of viable aircraft to the dumpster. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">All one needs to do for confirmation on that is to review the evolution of aircraft that occurred when we removed the LAST limiter…engine displacement. Prior to that, weight was only a secondary limiter because displacement restricted how big of a plane you could carry around. Once removed, we had 10 years of growing aircraft and growing engines. All costing more, NOT just because the new stuff was more expensive…that’s just natural inflation and evolution, but because the lifespan of a model was shorter. Designs changed SIGNIFICANTLY every year.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Finally, we’re back to a semi stable development cycle which has aircraft like the Integral enjoying a 5-6 year run and is still considered competitive even in FAI (I believe that’s what Pete Collinson flew in the finals this year). </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">It’s not that we’re not listening… We’re simply trying to avoid mistakes from the past and make as sure as we can that the rule changes won’t have disastrous unintended consequences. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">The rule change that is currently on the ballot provides a sizeable variance for those in the lower classes to help accommodate aging aircraft (which seem to gain weight magically), repaired used aircraft, and beginning builders….without changing the goal (and therefore the designers goal) of maintaining a 5KG weight limit.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Ok…off my soapbox. Sorry for the diatribe.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><B><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Mark Atwood</SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><B><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=1><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Paragon Consulting, Inc.</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> </SPAN></FONT><B><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">|</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> President</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 </SPAN></FONT><B><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=1><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">|</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> Fax: 440.684.3102</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Verdana color=#1351f3 size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt; COLOR: #1351f3; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><A href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</A> </SPAN></FONT><B><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=1><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">|</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Verdana color=black size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana color=#1351f3 size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt; COLOR: #1351f3; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><A href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target=_blank>www.paragon-inc.com</A></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Dr Mike<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:42 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Lance,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Regarding the CB, I agree with you that those generalities are anal comments. Most of the guys are giving freely of their time and we are lucky to have them. On the weight issue, the 11 pounds is a bit restricting. When that rule was made, planes had a 60 inch span, were 48 inches long and weighed 7 lbs. now they are volumetrically double or triple so the wing loading is the same or lighter. Needs to go up at least a pound or two.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Patterndude<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:35 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I have a 10 lb e-symphony, there are low 10 lb Evo's and both these planes are super rigid an tough. There are e planes that I'm afraid to touch because of fragility and they cost more too. Point is, the consumer has choices and don't need to fly a dangerous airframe. They choose to. Remember the glow Impacts that lost their tail in a snap but hundreds were sold AFTER this fact was known on this list? </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">As a CB guy I don't like being generalized against. I ask for input all the time. Even call people and tell people where my head is at all the time without preaching. <BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>On Aug 18, 2010, at 8:11 PM, Tim Taylor <<A href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com">timsautopro@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">We can always ignore it, we've done that for years unless you're in the top 3-5 at the Nats.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">In this day and age of instant communication we no longer need a Contest Board to decide what we do or not. With all due respect to the CB we don't need you guys anymore, we can poll the membership directly and set the rules. Far more representative that way.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The only time I ever tried to talk to a CB member about a rules proposal in person I got the old "I know better than you and I'm going to do what I want so we don't need to discuss it." He then refused to even talk about anything at that point. Left a very bad taste I tell you.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Tim<BR>--- On <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Wed, 8/18/10, Dave Burton <I><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><<A href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</A>></SPAN></I></SPAN></B> wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>From: Dave Burton <<A href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR>To: "'General pattern discussion'" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 7:53 PM</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The rules proposal to eliminate the weight limit didn't make the first CB<BR>vote. Too bad IMO!<BR>Dave<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen<BR>Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:35 PM<BR>To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>I'm concerned that these new electric only planes that are designed to make<BR>weight won't hold up to the normal wear and tear of an average intermediate<BR>or advanced pilot or flying off of a rough grass runway. Is this a valid<BR>concern? I think so but maybe I'm over reacting. That is why I'm in favor<BR>of eliminating the weight limit altogether. The proposal to slightly raise<BR>the weight limit won't allow someone to fly an electric Focus II for<BR>example.<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of J N Hiller<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:17 PM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>I've been following this with interest. E-power is looking better all the<BR>time and I probably will make the change. I like to build prefer a wood<BR>airplane. About how much total weight is in a suitable E-power system or<BR>empty airframe ready for radio etc? Any numbers readily available would be<BR>helpful in understanding the distribution of weight.<BR>Thanks<BR>Jim Hiller<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]On Behalf Of Dave<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:02 AM<BR>To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>And to recall.....that is the Spark with custom wings and stabs, which saves<BR>substantial weight? There are very few unmodified kits available that are<BR>RTF electric at 10.25. There are some airframe examples for which glow /<BR>electric are similar weight, but that is not the norm - not yet anyway - my<BR>opinion.<BR><BR>My electric Bravo was 10 lbs even at the 2009 NATs (only 4 oz more than the<BR>Vivat I flew in 2005) and I would be scared of the structure if it were any<BR>lighter. Of course it could be lighter still IF I went from 5000 to 4350<BR>lipos (~6 oz) and ditched the dual RX batts and Vregs (~2 oz) and used<BR>lighter ESC and wiring (~ 2 oz).<BR><BR>Point being....even tho 10 lb electrics are possible, and becoming more<BR>common, it is still pretty easy to build electrics at 11+ lbs without<BR>careful planning and attention to detail. I think it will become a<BR>non-issue soon enough.....even in Europe and Asia electrics are coming on<BR>strong.....so the glow kits will become increasingly scarce.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Dave<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:06 AM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>I would argue that you can't "disregard" the airframe given that an all<BR>electric airframe is much lighter.<BR><BR>My answer to the question? There is almost no difference. I'm flying a<BR>full 2M plane that weighs 10lbs 4oz with light batteries, 10lbs, 8oz with<BR>very heavy batteries. My two Black Magics with glow weighed 10lbs 6oz and<BR>10lbs 8oz RTF minus CDI (add approx 4oz for that).<BR><BR>I believe we're just now seeing full electric designs that are optimized for<BR>weight and are coming in light. Prior to that, many of the designs still<BR>had unnecessary structure as a legacy from Glow. I'm pretty sure that<BR>evolution is not complete yet either.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Mark Atwood<BR>Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President<BR>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124<BR>Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Fax: 440.684.3102<BR><A href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</A> | <A href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target=_blank>www.paragon-inc.com</A><BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:58 AM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>Tough question. Will you insist on using 30C lipos, when 20C lipos<BR>are much lighter? Do you plan on using a particular motor? Motor<BR>weights vary substantially. Some ESCs are a lot heavier than others.<BR><BR>My guess would be that the weight difference between a complete<BR>electric-power system and a complete glow-power system, disregarding<BR>the airplane, would be 10-16 ounces.<BR><BR>Ron<BR><BR>On Aug 17, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Dr Mike wrote:<BR><BR>> Ok so I am going to ask the question again... in your estimation<BR>> what is the<BR>> difference in weight between the complete electric power system and<BR>> the<BR>> complete glow system-disregarding the airplane?<BR>> Mike<BR>><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> [mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Ron<BR>> Van Putte<BR>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:30 AM<BR>> To: General pattern discussion<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR>><BR>> Dave WAS trying to show the difference between glow and electric.<BR>><BR>> Generally, airplanes that started out as glow-powered are heavier<BR>> than one for electric power, because of the vibration. The<BR>> difference between the two packages gets complicated. For glow, you<BR>> include spinner, prop, engine, motor mount, ignition system, fuel<BR>> tubing (and fittings), fuel tank and anything else which is<BR>> exclusively for glow. For electric, you include spinner, prop,<BR>> motor, motor mount, ESC, wiring, lipo batteries and anything else<BR>> which is exclusively for electric. When you add it up, the weight<BR>> differences can be pretty dramatic. If you don't carefully select<BR>> all the components, you can easily add an unneeded 4 ounces to an<BR>> electric-powered airplane.<BR>><BR>> Ron<BR>><BR>> On Aug 17, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Dr Mike wrote:<BR>><BR>>> Thanks Dave, I am referring only to the power packages,not the<BR>>> planes. Those are what I am looking for, the difference between<BR>>> glow and electric.<BR>>><BR>>> Mike<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-<BR>>> <A href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Dave<BR>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:41 AM<BR>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> 12 oz +/-4 oz.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Exact number depends on a bunch of things -<BR>>><BR>>> - on the electric side, which motor, motor mounting, ESC, lipo, RX<BR>>> power system?<BR>>><BR>>> - was the plane originally built lighter for electric, or with more<BR>>> beef for glow?<BR>>><BR>>> - CDI / non CDI, type of mount, and what type of ignition and RX<BR>>> power?<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> I can tell you that a number of Prestige planes have been built<BR>>> with various glow and electric power plants. For the most part,<BR>>> the glow airframes are +4 oz to start with (the added beef for glow<BR>>> vibration). Most of the glow setups ended up at 9.5 lbs, +/- 4<BR>>> oz. Most of the electrics ended up at 10.25 lbs, +/- 4 oz.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Regards,<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Dave<BR>>><BR>>> From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-<BR>>> <A href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of Dr Mike<BR>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:33 AM<BR>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Could someone tell me the difference in weight between say a YS 1.7<BR>>> with muffler/tank,etc vs electric?<BR>>><BR>>> Thanks<BR>>><BR>>> Mike<BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature<BR>database 5374 (20100817) __________<BR><BR>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.<BR><BR><A href="http://www.eset.com/" target=_blank>http://www.eset.com</A><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank>www.avg.com</A> <BR>Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3079 - Release Date: 08/18/10<BR>14:35:00<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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<P class=ecxnormalweb25 style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<BR>Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3080 - Release Date: 08/19/10 02:35:00</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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