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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Those that fly FAI (Dr Mike) need to be complaining to the FAI
CIAM chairman about weight and not this forum. We, AMA, have NO repeat NO
control over what FAI does or does not do. We get one vote and since
Chidgey left we seem to have little or no influence. We could
choose to not participate in FAI, no world championships, and do our own thing.
I would not be for that approach and I suspect most would not. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Let’s see. I am on my third year of flying my
BlackMagic VF-3Es and they are as good as the day I got them.
Unless I crash (been known to do that) they should be around for another 3 or 4
years. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ron
Hansen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 19, 2010 5:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I agree Mike. I have a hard time believing that the volume of
the planes can get much bigger before they start exploding in the air.
Eliminate the weight limit. If the overseas manufacturers keep making
planes to meet the 11 lb limit so be it. Some manufacturers in the US may
make kits that are better suited for NSRCA and some will not. Either way
the selection increases. I’m concerned these planes are getting
more and more fragile. This is defeating one of the benefits of going
electric (air frame longevity).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dr Mike<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>IMO, the weight limit
restriction has driven up the cost of aircraft and made construction more
difficult for even an accomplished builder. It also creates a potentially
unsafe vessel because of trying to make weight. What is wrong with being
innovative? The weight rule is obsolete and restrictive. The planes
are becoming cookie-cutter, boring, expensive look alikes that have minute
differences. My voice is to make the change. Seems like in all
endeavors those that are the loudest are the ones saying NO CHANGE!!!. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>My 2 cents.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Mike </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Atwood,
Mark<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I actually feel that
you’re making my point in a way. When we were restricted by engine
displacement the size and weight were not in contention as a limiting factor
(though they were, just that without more power, they didn’t come into
play).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The argument at the time of
removing the engine displacement was EXACTLY the one being made today
(only internationally instead of just domestically). Which was that
engine displacement rule was increasing costs because engine manufacturers were
trying to get the last 1% of power out of the existing displacement. Thus
the $300 OS Hanno Special which was an outrageous price for a .61 engine.
YS was doing the same on the 4 stroke side (another dubious rule change to
provide equity between 4 stroke and 2 stroke power plants). </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So the goal was to allow any
engine…thus letting the “average” guy fly a cheaper, but
larger displacement engine. Did that work? Is anyone successfully
running the ST 2300?? Or did we just get bigger planes that require
bigger engines…up until we hit the size/weight limit and now we get back
to expensive Engines with more expensive CDI units?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>What I don’t understand
is that people don’t think the planes can get any bigger because of the
2m rule. My Arch Nemesis was a FULL 2m airplane in 1997… at
9lbs. We didn’t think they could get any bigger then
either. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>All of that said, Contrary to
Tim’s experience, I do try hard to listen to members of my district. ALL
of them…NOT just the vocal ones that post prolifically on RCU or this
list. And there are far more in favor of maintaining the weight rule than
eliminating it, or substantially raising it. MOST…and I do mean
MOST, really don’t care. “tell me the rules, and
I’ll play by them”. That group, and it’s by far
the largest group, wants consistency year to year to year. That saves
them the most money as they get a much longer lifespan from their investment.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>-M</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Mark Atwood</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> President</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:8.5pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive
Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span><span style='font-size:
10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:8.5pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Phone: 440.684.3101
x102 </span><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>|</span></b><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'> Fax: 440.684.3102</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:8.5pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1351F3'><a
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
</span><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>|</span></b><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
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color:#1351F3'><a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave
Burton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:49 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I couldn’t disagree
more.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Two meter rule restricts the
size of pattern planes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Noise rule restricts the
impact pattern planes have on neighbors.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Both of these are good rules
IMO.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The present weight
limit only drives up the cost and compromises safety.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It’s one of the reasons
people are spending $4,000+ on airframes and driving away people who might fly
pattern but aren’t willing/able to due to the cost.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>From the 1930’s rules,
we increased the size of planes and engines tremendously and kept a
weight rule the same as when we flew .45 – 61 glow engines.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Then we weigh electric planes
with fuel, glow planes empty.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Makes no sense!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dave Burton</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Atwood,
Mark<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The challenge here is that
rules of this nature, limiting rules, be it in Pattern, Sailing, Stock car,
whatever, are NOT in place to restrict the average guy, they’re in place
to restrict the innovator. The guys that push the limit.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In our sport, the
“average” guy is stuck pushing the limit because he’s trying
to copy and follow the innovators. We all want the triple volumetric 2
meter bird because that’s what Chip/Andrew/Quique and company have pushed
the boundary’s too. A prophecy still makes weight with nooooo
problem. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So the problem is
simple. IF the rules change, it clearly will help the average guy for a
year or two. But then the innovators will once again push the limits
(they wouldn’t BE limits if no one was pushing) and we would see new
designs that the average guy can’t easily keep within the rules.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Bipes have not really caught
on because they’re too difficult to make weight with. Only the very
best builders with very few limits on funding for all the best and lightest
equipment have made them work. Add a pound and that will very likely
change…to where all the top guys can make them work, which will then push
the average guy to try and make them work. At the end of the day,
all it adds is cost as we obsolete a whole generation of viable aircraft to the
dumpster. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>All one needs to do for
confirmation on that is to review the evolution of aircraft that occurred when
we removed the LAST limiter…engine displacement. Prior to that,
weight was only a secondary limiter because displacement restricted how big of
a plane you could carry around. Once removed, we had 10 years of growing
aircraft and growing engines. All costing more, NOT just because the new
stuff was more expensive…that’s just natural inflation and
evolution, but because the lifespan of a model was shorter. Designs
changed SIGNIFICANTLY every year.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Finally, we’re back to
a semi stable development cycle which has aircraft like the Integral enjoying a
5-6 year run and is still considered competitive even in FAI (I believe
that’s what Pete Collinson flew in the finals this year). </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It’s not that
we’re not listening… We’re simply trying to avoid
mistakes from the past and make as sure as we can that the rule changes
won’t have disastrous unintended consequences. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The rule change that is
currently on the ballot provides a sizeable variance for those in the lower
classes to help accommodate aging aircraft (which seem to gain weight
magically), repaired used aircraft, and beginning builders….without
changing the goal (and therefore the designers goal) of maintaining a 5KG
weight limit.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Ok…off my
soapbox. Sorry for the diatribe.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>-Mark </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>CB for Dist 3 </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Mark Atwood</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> President</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:8.5pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive
Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span><span style='font-size:
10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:8.5pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Phone: 440.684.3101
x102 </span><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>|</span></b><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'> Fax: 440.684.3102</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:8.5pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1351F3'><a
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
</span><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>|</span></b><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1351F3'><a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dr Mike<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Lance,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regarding the CB, I agree
with you that those generalities are anal comments. Most of the guys are
giving freely of their time and we are lucky to have them. On the weight
issue, the 11 pounds is a bit restricting. When that rule was made,
planes had a 60 inch span, were 48 inches long and weighed 7 lbs. now
they are volumetrically double or triple so the wing loading is the same or
lighter. Needs to go up at least a pound or two.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Mike </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Patterndude<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>I have a 10 lb e-symphony, there
are low 10 lb Evo's and both these planes are super rigid an tough. There are e
planes that I'm afraid to touch because of fragility and they cost more too.
Point is, the consumer has choices and don't need to fly a dangerous airframe.
They choose to. Remember the glow Impacts that lost their tail in a snap but
hundreds were sold AFTER this fact was known on this list? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>As a CB guy I don't like being
generalized against. I ask for input all the time. Even call people and tell
people where my head is at all the time without preaching. <br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br>
On Aug 18, 2010, at 8:11 PM, Tim Taylor <<a
href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com">timsautopro@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=624
style='width:6.5in;margin-left:.5in'>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>We can always ignore it, we've done that for years unless
you're in the top 3-5 at the Nats.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>In this day and age of instant communication we no
longer need a Contest Board to decide what we do or not. With all
due respect to the CB we don't need you guys anymore, we can poll the
membership directly and set the rules. Far more representative that way.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The only time I ever tried to talk to a CB member about a
rules proposal in person I got the old "I know better than you and I'm
going to do what I want so we don't need to discuss
it." He then refused to even talk about anything at that
point. Left a very bad taste I tell you.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Tim<br>
--- On <b>Wed, 8/18/10, Dave Burton <i><<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 3.0pt;
margin-left:3.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
From: Dave Burton <<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 7:53 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The rules proposal to eliminate the weight limit didn't
make the first CB<br>
vote. Too bad IMO!<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Ron Hansen<br>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:35 PM<br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
I'm concerned that these new electric only planes that are designed to make<br>
weight won't hold up to the normal wear and tear of an average intermediate<br>
or advanced pilot or flying off of a rough grass runway. Is this a
valid<br>
concern? I think so but maybe I'm over reacting. That is why I'm
in favor<br>
of eliminating the weight limit altogether. The proposal to slightly
raise<br>
the weight limit won't allow someone to fly an electric Focus II for<br>
example.<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of J N Hiller<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:17 PM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
I've been following this with interest. E-power is looking better all the<br>
time and I probably will make the change. I like to build prefer a wood<br>
airplane. About how much total weight is in a suitable E-power system or<br>
empty airframe ready for radio etc? Any numbers readily available would be<br>
helpful in understanding the distribution of weight.<br>
Thanks<br>
Jim Hiller<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]On
Behalf Of Dave<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:02 AM<br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
And to recall.....that is the Spark with custom wings and stabs, which saves<br>
substantial weight? There are very few unmodified kits available that
are<br>
RTF electric at 10.25. There are some airframe examples for which glow
/<br>
electric are similar weight, but that is not the norm - not yet anyway - my<br>
opinion.<br>
<br>
My electric Bravo was 10 lbs even at the 2009 NATs (only 4 oz more than the<br>
Vivat I flew in 2005) and I would be scared of the structure if it were any<br>
lighter. Of course it could be lighter still IF I went from 5000 to 4350<br>
lipos (~6 oz) and ditched the dual RX batts and Vregs (~2 oz) and used<br>
lighter ESC and wiring (~ 2 oz).<br>
<br>
Point being....even tho 10 lb electrics are possible, and becoming more<br>
common, it is still pretty easy to build electrics at 11+ lbs without<br>
careful planning and attention to detail. I think it will become a<br>
non-issue soon enough.....even in Europe and Asia electrics are coming on<br>
strong.....so the glow kits will become increasingly scarce.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:06 AM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
I would argue that you can't "disregard" the airframe given that an
all<br>
electric airframe is much lighter.<br>
<br>
My answer to the question? There is almost no difference. I'm
flying a<br>
full 2M plane that weighs 10lbs 4oz with light batteries, 10lbs, 8oz with<br>
very heavy batteries. My two Black Magics with glow weighed
10lbs 6oz and<br>
10lbs 8oz RTF minus CDI (add approx 4oz for that).<br>
<br>
I believe we're just now seeing full electric designs that are optimized for<br>
weight and are coming in light. Prior to that, many of the
designs still<br>
had unnecessary structure as a legacy from Glow. I'm pretty sure that<br>
evolution is not complete yet either.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Mark Atwood<br>
Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President<br>
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124<br>
Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Fax: 440.684.3102<br>
<a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
| <a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com">www.paragon-inc.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:58 AM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
Tough question. Will you insist on using 30C lipos, when 20C lipos<br>
are much lighter? Do you plan on using a particular motor? Motor<br>
weights vary substantially. Some ESCs are a lot heavier than others.<br>
<br>
My guess would be that the weight difference between a complete<br>
electric-power system and a complete glow-power system, disregarding<br>
the airplane, would be 10-16 ounces.<br>
<br>
Ron<br>
<br>
On Aug 17, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Dr Mike wrote:<br>
<br>
> Ok so I am going to ask the question again... in your estimation<br>
> what is the<br>
> difference in weight between the complete electric power system and<br>
> the<br>
> complete glow system-disregarding the airplane?<br>
> Mike<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Ron<br>
> Van Putte<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:30 AM<br>
> To: General pattern discussion<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
><br>
> Dave WAS trying to show the difference between glow and electric.<br>
><br>
> Generally, airplanes that started out as glow-powered are heavier<br>
> than one for electric power, because of the vibration. The<br>
> difference between the two packages gets complicated. For glow,
you<br>
> include spinner, prop, engine, motor mount, ignition system, fuel<br>
> tubing (and fittings), fuel tank and anything else which is<br>
> exclusively for glow. For electric, you include spinner, prop,<br>
> motor, motor mount, ESC, wiring, lipo batteries and anything else<br>
> which is exclusively for electric. When you add it up, the weight<br>
> differences can be pretty dramatic. If you don't carefully select<br>
> all the components, you can easily add an unneeded 4 ounces to an<br>
> electric-powered airplane.<br>
><br>
> Ron<br>
><br>
> On Aug 17, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Dr Mike wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Thanks Dave, I am referring only to the power packages,not the<br>
>> planes. Those are what I am looking for, the difference between<br>
>> glow and electric.<br>
>><br>
>> Mike<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-<br>
>> <a href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Dave<br>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:41 AM<br>
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> 12 oz +/-4 oz.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Exact number depends on a bunch of things -<br>
>><br>
>> - on the electric side, which motor, motor mounting, ESC, lipo, RX<br>
>> power system?<br>
>><br>
>> - was the plane originally built lighter for electric, or with more<br>
>> beef for glow?<br>
>><br>
>> - CDI / non CDI, type of mount, and what type of ignition and RX<br>
>> power?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> I can tell you that a number of Prestige planes have been built<br>
>> with various glow and electric power plants. For the most
part,<br>
>> the glow airframes are +4 oz to start with (the added beef for glow<br>
>> vibration). Most of the glow setups ended up at 9.5 lbs, +/- 4<br>
>> oz. Most of the electrics ended up at 10.25 lbs, +/- 4 oz.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Regards,<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Dave<br>
>><br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-<br>
>> <a href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Dr Mike<br>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:33 AM<br>
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Could someone tell me the difference in weight between say a YS 1.7<br>
>> with muffler/tank,etc vs electric?<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks<br>
>><br>
>> Mike<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
><br>
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__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature<br>
database 5374 (20100817) __________<br>
<br>
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.eset.com">http://www.eset.com</a><br>
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No virus found in this incoming message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a> <br>
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3079 - Release Date: 08/18/10<br>
14:35:00<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>No
virus found in this incoming message.<br>
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<br>
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3080 - Release Date: 08/19/10
02:35:00</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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