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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>That can’t be done by the average
pattern builder. It requires a high degree of talent and know how.
Besides, I wouldn’t call the Integral a robust kit and it is still on the
heavy side. Increasing the weight limit and/or eliminating it altogether will
only increase the number of kits available. What is the harm in that?</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Ed Alt<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, August 19, 2010
7:44 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
weight difference</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>You can't build it LIKE a Black
Magic much bigger and make weight. Stressed skin balsa/FG laminates are
how to do it. I've mentioned this a few times on RCU, but just look at
how Wistmodel does it. The CA Integral copies the technique fairly well
for the fuselage, but does a mediocre job with the wing structure. If
they can do it mostly right for about $1k, that ought to demonstrate how
someone can do it 100% right very about the same dollars.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>Ed</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke'><b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a href="mailto:rcpilot@wowway.com"
title="mailto:rcpilot@wowway.com CTRL + Click to follow link">Ron Hansen</a>
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke'><b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:19 PM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke'><b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:whitesmoke'><b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight
difference</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ed, I’m not sure I
agree but lets assume you are correct. You can’t build a balsa 2m
any bigger than the black magic and make weight. If the volumes get any
bigger everyone will be forced to buy high dollar composites built most likely
overseas. Not sure that is healthy for the hobby.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Ed Alt<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, August 19, 2010
7:05 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
weight difference</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
1.0in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Actually,
larger fuselage volumes lend themselves very well to good structutal
integrity. The inverse applies for skinny stuff. Provided
that correct design principles are followed, and that there is good quality
control over manufacturing processes, there is no reason for concern with large
volume fuselages being strong enough. However, as soon as you raise
the weight limit, you then need a beefier structure to carry it. So
who wants that?</span></font></p>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
1.0in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>From:
rcpilot@wowway.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:53:00 -0400<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I agree
Mike. I have a hard time believing that the volume of the planes can get
much bigger before they start exploding in the air. Eliminate the weight
limit. If the overseas manufacturers keep making planes to meet the 11 lb
limit so be it. Some manufacturers in the US may make kits that are
better suited for NSRCA and some will not. Either way the selection
increases. I’m concerned these planes are getting more and more
fragile. This is defeating one of the benefits of going electric (air
frame longevity).</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Dr Mike<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, August 19, 2010
10:53 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
weight difference</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>IMO,
the weight limit restriction has driven up the cost of aircraft and made
construction more difficult for even an accomplished builder. It also
creates a potentially unsafe vessel because of trying to make weight.
What is wrong with being innovative? The weight rule is obsolete and
restrictive. The planes are becoming cookie-cutter, boring, expensive
look alikes that have minute differences. My voice is to make the
change. Seems like in all endeavors those that are the loudest are the
ones saying NO CHANGE!!!. </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>My
2 cents.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Mike
</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Atwood, Mark<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, August 19, 2010
9:18 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
weight difference</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I
actually feel that you’re making my point in a way. When we were
restricted by engine displacement the size and weight were not in contention as
a limiting factor (though they were, just that without more power, they
didn’t come into play).</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>The
argument at the time of removing the engine displacement was EXACTLY the
one being made today (only internationally instead of just domestically).
Which was that engine displacement rule was increasing costs because engine
manufacturers were trying to get the last 1% of power out of the existing
displacement. Thus the $300 OS Hanno Special which was an outrageous
price for a .61 engine. YS was doing the same on the 4 stroke side (another
dubious rule change to provide equity between 4 stroke and 2 stroke power
plants). </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>So
the goal was to allow any engine…thus letting the “average”
guy fly a cheaper, but larger displacement engine. Did that work?
Is anyone successfully running the ST 2300?? Or did we just get bigger
planes that require bigger engines…up until we hit the size/weight limit
and now we get back to expensive Engines with more expensive CDI units?</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>What
I don’t understand is that people don’t think the planes can get
any bigger because of the 2m rule. My Arch Nemesis was a FULL 2m airplane
in 1997… at 9lbs. We didn’t think they could get any
bigger then either. </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>All
of that said, Contrary to Tim’s experience, I do try hard to listen to
members of my district. ALL of them…NOT just the vocal ones that post
prolifically on RCU or this list. And there are far more in favor of
maintaining the weight rule than eliminating it, or substantially raising
it. MOST…and I do mean MOST, really don’t care.
“tell me the rules, and I’ll play by them”. That
group, and it’s by far the largest group, wants consistency year to year
to year. That saves them the most money as they get a much longer
lifespan from their investment.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>-M</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Mark Atwood</span></font></b></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><b><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></font></b><font size=1
color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> </span></font><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> President</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive
Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span></font><font size=2
color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Phone:
440.684.3101 x102 </span></font><b><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> Fax:
440.684.3102</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=1 color="#1351f3"
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#1351F3'><a
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
</span></font><b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font
size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> </span></font><font size=1 color="#1351f3"
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#1351F3'><a
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Dave Burton<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, August 19, 2010
9:49 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
weight difference</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I
couldn’t disagree more.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Two
meter rule restricts the size of pattern planes.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Noise
rule restricts the impact pattern planes have on neighbors.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Both
of these are good rules IMO.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>The
present weight limit only drives up the cost and compromises safety.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>It’s
one of the reasons people are spending $4,000+ on airframes and driving away
people who might fly pattern but aren’t willing/able to due to the cost.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>From
the 1930’s rules, we increased the size of planes and engines
tremendously and kept a weight rule the same as when we flew .45 – 61
glow engines.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Then
we weigh electric planes with fuel, glow planes empty.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Makes
no sense!</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Dave
Burton</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Atwood, Mark<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, August 19, 2010
9:05 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
weight difference</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>The
challenge here is that rules of this nature, limiting rules, be it in Pattern,
Sailing, Stock car, whatever, are NOT in place to restrict the average guy,
they’re in place to restrict the innovator. The guys that push the
limit.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>In
our sport, the “average” guy is stuck pushing the limit because
he’s trying to copy and follow the innovators. We all want the triple
volumetric 2 meter bird because that’s what Chip/Andrew/Quique and
company have pushed the boundary’s too. A prophecy still makes
weight with nooooo problem. </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>So
the problem is simple. IF the rules change, it clearly will help the
average guy for a year or two. But then the innovators will once again
push the limits (they wouldn’t BE limits if no one was pushing) and we
would see new designs that the average guy can’t easily keep within the
rules.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Bipes
have not really caught on because they’re too difficult to make weight
with. Only the very best builders with very few limits on funding for all
the best and lightest equipment have made them work. Add a pound and that
will very likely change…to where all the top guys can make them work,
which will then push the average guy to try and make them work. At
the end of the day, all it adds is cost as we obsolete a whole generation of
viable aircraft to the dumpster. </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>All
one needs to do for confirmation on that is to review the evolution of aircraft
that occurred when we removed the LAST limiter…engine
displacement. Prior to that, weight was only a secondary limiter
because displacement restricted how big of a plane you could carry around.
Once removed, we had 10 years of growing aircraft and growing engines.
All costing more, NOT just because the new stuff was more
expensive…that’s just natural inflation and evolution, but because
the lifespan of a model was shorter. Designs changed SIGNIFICANTLY
every year.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Finally,
we’re back to a semi stable development cycle which has aircraft like the
Integral enjoying a 5-6 year run and is still considered competitive even in
FAI (I believe that’s what Pete Collinson flew in the finals this
year). </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>It’s
not that we’re not listening… We’re simply trying to
avoid mistakes from the past and make as sure as we can that the rule changes
won’t have disastrous unintended consequences. </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>The
rule change that is currently on the ballot provides a sizeable variance for
those in the lower classes to help accommodate aging aircraft (which seem to
gain weight magically), repaired used aircraft, and beginning
builders….without changing the goal (and therefore the designers goal) of
maintaining a 5KG weight limit.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Ok…off
my soapbox. Sorry for the diatribe.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>-Mark
</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>CB
for Dist 3 </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Mark Atwood</span></font></b></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><b><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></font></b><font size=1
color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> </span></font><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> President</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive
Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span></font><font size=2
color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Phone:
440.684.3101 x102 </span></font><b><font size=1 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> Fax:
440.684.3102</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=1 color="#1351f3"
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#1351F3'><a
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
</span></font><b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>|</span></font></b><font
size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> </span></font><font size=1 color="#1351f3"
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#1351F3'><a
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Dr Mike<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, August 19, 2010
8:42 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
weight difference</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Lance,</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Regarding
the CB, I agree with you that those generalities are anal comments. Most
of the guys are giving freely of their time and we are lucky to have
them. On the weight issue, the 11 pounds is a bit restricting. When
that rule was made, planes had a 60 inch span, were 48 inches long and weighed
7 lbs. now they are volumetrically double or triple so the wing loading
is the same or lighter. Needs to go up at least a pound or two.</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Mike
</span></font></p>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Patterndude<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:35
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
weight difference</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I have a 10 lb
e-symphony, there are low 10 lb Evo's and both these planes are super rigid an
tough. There are e planes that I'm afraid to touch because of fragility and
they cost more too. Point is, the consumer has choices and don't need to fly a
dangerous airframe. They choose to. Remember the glow Impacts that lost their
tail in a snap but hundreds were sold AFTER this fact was known on this list?
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-left:1.5in'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>As a CB guy I don't like
being generalized against. I ask for input all the time. Even call people and
tell people where my head is at all the time without preaching. <br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
1.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
On Aug 18, 2010, at 8:11 PM, Tim Taylor <<a
href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com">timsautopro@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=624
style='width:6.5in;margin-left:1.5in'>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>We can always ignore it, we've done that for years
unless you're in the top 3-5 at the Nats.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>In this day and age of instant communication we
no longer need a Contest Board to decide what we do or not. With
all due respect to the CB we don't need you guys anymore, we can poll the
membership directly and set the rules. Far more representative that way.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The only time I ever tried to talk to a CB member
about a rules proposal in person I got the old "I know better than you
and I'm going to do what I want so we don't need to discuss
it." He then refused to even talk about anything at that
point. Left a very bad taste I tell you.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Tim<br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Wed, 8/18/10, Dave Burton <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 3.0pt;
margin-left:3.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=normalweb25 style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
From: Dave Burton <<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 7:53 PM</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=normalweb25><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The rules proposal to eliminate the weight limit
didn't make the first CB<br>
vote. Too bad IMO!<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Ron Hansen<br>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:35 PM<br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
I'm concerned that these new electric only planes that are designed to make<br>
weight won't hold up to the normal wear and tear of an average intermediate<br>
or advanced pilot or flying off of a rough grass runway. Is this a
valid<br>
concern? I think so but maybe I'm over reacting. That is why I'm
in favor<br>
of eliminating the weight limit altogether. The proposal to slightly
raise<br>
the weight limit won't allow someone to fly an electric Focus II for<br>
example.<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of J N Hiller<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:17 PM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
I've been following this with interest. E-power is looking better all the<br>
time and I probably will make the change. I like to build prefer a wood<br>
airplane. About how much total weight is in a suitable E-power system or<br>
empty airframe ready for radio etc? Any numbers readily available would be<br>
helpful in understanding the distribution of weight.<br>
Thanks<br>
Jim Hiller<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]On
Behalf Of Dave<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:02 AM<br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
And to recall.....that is the Spark with custom wings and stabs, which saves<br>
substantial weight? There are very few unmodified kits available that
are<br>
RTF electric at 10.25. There are some airframe examples for which glow
/<br>
electric are similar weight, but that is not the norm - not yet anyway - my<br>
opinion.<br>
<br>
My electric Bravo was 10 lbs even at the 2009 NATs (only 4 oz more than the<br>
Vivat I flew in 2005) and I would be scared of the structure if it were any<br>
lighter. Of course it could be lighter still IF I went from 5000 to
4350<br>
lipos (~6 oz) and ditched the dual RX batts and Vregs (~2 oz) and used<br>
lighter ESC and wiring (~ 2 oz).<br>
<br>
Point being....even tho 10 lb electrics are possible, and becoming more<br>
common, it is still pretty easy to build electrics at 11+ lbs without<br>
careful planning and attention to detail. I think it will become a<br>
non-issue soon enough.....even in Europe and Asia electrics are coming on<br>
strong.....so the glow kits will become increasingly scarce.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:06 AM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
I would argue that you can't "disregard" the airframe given that an
all<br>
electric airframe is much lighter.<br>
<br>
My answer to the question? There is almost no
difference. I'm flying a<br>
full 2M plane that weighs 10lbs 4oz with light batteries, 10lbs, 8oz with<br>
very heavy batteries. My two Black Magics with glow weighed
10lbs 6oz and<br>
10lbs 8oz RTF minus CDI (add approx 4oz for that).<br>
<br>
I believe we're just now seeing full electric designs that are optimized for<br>
weight and are coming in light. Prior to that, many of the
designs still<br>
had unnecessary structure as a legacy from Glow. I'm pretty sure that<br>
evolution is not complete yet either.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Mark Atwood<br>
Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President<br>
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124<br>
Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Fax: 440.684.3102<br>
<a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
| <a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com" target="_blank">www.paragon-inc.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:58 AM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
Tough question. Will you insist on using 30C lipos, when 20C lipos<br>
are much lighter? Do you plan on using a particular motor? Motor<br>
weights vary substantially. Some ESCs are a lot heavier than others.<br>
<br>
My guess would be that the weight difference between a complete<br>
electric-power system and a complete glow-power system, disregarding<br>
the airplane, would be 10-16 ounces.<br>
<br>
Ron<br>
<br>
On Aug 17, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Dr Mike wrote:<br>
<br>
> Ok so I am going to ask the question again... in your estimation<br>
> what is the<br>
> difference in weight between the complete electric power system and<br>
> the<br>
> complete glow system-disregarding the airplane?<br>
> Mike<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Ron<br>
> Van Putte<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:30 AM<br>
> To: General pattern discussion<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
><br>
> Dave WAS trying to show the difference between glow and electric.<br>
><br>
> Generally, airplanes that started out as glow-powered are heavier<br>
> than one for electric power, because of the vibration. The<br>
> difference between the two packages gets complicated. For glow,
you<br>
> include spinner, prop, engine, motor mount, ignition system, fuel<br>
> tubing (and fittings), fuel tank and anything else which is<br>
> exclusively for glow. For electric, you include spinner, prop,<br>
> motor, motor mount, ESC, wiring, lipo batteries and anything else<br>
> which is exclusively for electric. When you add it up, the weight<br>
> differences can be pretty dramatic. If you don't carefully select<br>
> all the components, you can easily add an unneeded 4 ounces to an<br>
> electric-powered airplane.<br>
><br>
> Ron<br>
><br>
> On Aug 17, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Dr Mike wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Thanks Dave, I am referring only to the power packages,not the<br>
>> planes. Those are what I am looking for, the difference between<br>
>> glow and electric.<br>
>><br>
>> Mike<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-<br>
>> <a href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Dave<br>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:41 AM<br>
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> 12 oz +/-4 oz.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Exact number depends on a bunch of things -<br>
>><br>
>> - on the electric side, which motor, motor mounting, ESC, lipo, RX<br>
>> power system?<br>
>><br>
>> - was the plane originally built lighter for electric, or with more<br>
>> beef for glow?<br>
>><br>
>> - CDI / non CDI, type of mount, and what type of ignition and RX<br>
>> power?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> I can tell you that a number of Prestige planes have been built<br>
>> with various glow and electric power plants. For the most
part,<br>
>> the glow airframes are +4 oz to start with (the added beef for glow<br>
>> vibration). Most of the glow setups ended up at 9.5 lbs, +/- 4<br>
>> oz. Most of the electrics ended up at 10.25 lbs, +/- 4 oz.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Regards,<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Dave<br>
>><br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-<br>
>> <a href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Dr Mike<br>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:33 AM<br>
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Could someone tell me the difference in weight between say a YS 1.7<br>
>> with muffler/tank,etc vs electric?<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks<br>
>><br>
>> Mike<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
><br>
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target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
><br>
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<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
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