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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I know Dave’s rational and I disagree. Dave and I are friends
and we agree to disagree. The nats has been won recently with inexpensive
airplanes, the top ten finishers have inexpensive airplanes, expensive stuff is
not required to win, that expense is the option of the pilot. Pattern is more
expensive because flyers are opting for very expensive prebuilt planes and more
expensive exotic equipment. The weight rule is unnecessary and restrictive. We,
our rep, needs to continue to plea, promote, whatever, to the FAI rules
committee to fix it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Much regard,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Mike <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>rcmaster199@aol.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 19, 2010 11:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Yes Mike I can carry an extra pound or two in the van. I don't
want to. So I do everything I can to make my planes less than 5 kilos. Easier
on my joints too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>As far as local contest weigh in is concerned....I agree.
Therefore it seems to me that at least 50% of the folks that don't attend the
Nats may be flying heavier than max airplanes and none's the wiser. Fine with
me. It also seems to me the main point for increasing the weight limit is so
that people can be "legal" at the US Nats. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Truth is that there are only 4 people that truly have use 5
kilo of less airplanes: the team that will represent us at the WC. The
rest of us can have a variable weight and it's not a big deal, except, if the
rule was relaxed, it will open the can of worms of escalating cost once again.
Dave Lockhart had a good review of how that process works a couple years ago,
so it makes no sense to rehash old stuff<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>In my view, I would prefer that the rule remain in an effort to
control cost to the current (admitedly high) level. And at the Nats, the only
planes that should be weighed are the top 4 F3A places. Let's forget about
weighing any of the others. Just do a size check and that's all.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Finally, if we were to relax the weight limit to say 12 lbs give
or take, okay fine, make sure planes were made from balsa and ply. Fiberglass
to be used only to finish not to build composite strength. In fact about the
only composite parts allowed should be wing and stab joiners and gear/pants. In
other words, make a good attempt to control cost. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>We have got to get cost under control in my view or the sport will
become too expensive for most. It may be too expensive for most right now<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>My 2 1/2 cents<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Matt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Dr Mike <drmikedds@sbcglobal.net><br>
To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Thu, Aug 19, 2010 10:58 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_cac2c933-26b9-4241-b15d-bbda5281f872">
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Matt, I agree with the size restriction, but I think you and
your van could carry another 2 pounds>heck we have guys flying 12+pound
planes at local contests all the time. When is the last time someone
weighed an airplane at a local contest? When is the last time anyone
enforced that rule? Practically speaking the weight limit is academic.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Mike </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>A 2 meter, 5 kilo plane is about my physical max. I physically
have a difficult time getting something larger in the minivan. At one time I
dabbled in 1/3 scale IMAC but that proved too big and too heavy to haul
around....just a plain pain in tuchous (can I say 'tuchous' in this forum?)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Besides, I find it great fun to figure out how to make a 2meter, 5
kilo plane come out at 4.5 kilos....don't you?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>MattK</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:ronlock@comcast.net">ronlock@comcast.net</a><br>
To: General pattern discussion <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Sent: Thu, Aug 19, 2010 9:29 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_6aa72cc4-ff5a-4007-983c-3a6e3c761012">
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>An
excellent discussion - especially the "unintended consequences"
part. Thanks for the diatribe Mark !</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I
think we should be particularly sensitive to an increase in AMA weight
standard resulting (in a couple of years) in larger designs that take up
more room, cost more, and are no longer compatible with F3A.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Ron
Lockhart</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Dist
II CB </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Mark Atwood" <<a href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com"><span
style='color:windowtext'>atwoodm@paragon-inc.com</span></a>><br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><span style='color:windowtext'>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></a>><br>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:05:03 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The challenge here is that rules of this nature, limiting rules,
be it in Pattern, Sailing, Stock car, whatever, are NOT in place to restrict
the average guy, they’re in place to restrict the innovator. The guys
that push the limit.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>In our sport, the “average” guy is stuck pushing the limit
because he’s trying to copy and follow the innovators. We all want the
triple volumetric 2 meter bird because that’s what Chip/Andrew/Quique and
company have pushed the boundary’s too. A prophecy still makes weight with
nooooo problem. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>So the problem is simple. IF the rules change, it clearly
will help the average guy for a year or two. But then the innovators will
once again push the limits (they wouldn’t BE limits if no one was pushing) and
we would see new designs that the average guy can’t easily keep within the
rules.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bipes have not really caught on because they’re too difficult to
make weight with. Only the very best builders with very few limits on
funding for all the best and lightest equipment have made them work. Add
a pound and that will very likely change…to where all the top guys can make
them work, which will then push the average guy to try and make them
work. At the end of the day, all it adds is cost as we obsolete a
whole generation of viable aircraft to the dumpster. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>All one needs to do for confirmation on that is to review the
evolution of aircraft that occurred when we removed the LAST limiter…engine
displacement. Prior to that, weight was only a secondary limiter
because displacement restricted how big of a plane you could carry
around. Once removed, we had 10 years of growing aircraft and growing
engines. All costing more, NOT just because the new stuff was more
expensive…that’s just natural inflation and evolution, but because the lifespan
of a model was shorter. Designs changed SIGNIFICANTLY every year.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Finally, we’re back to a semi stable development cycle which has
aircraft like the Integral enjoying a 5-6 year run and is still considered
competitive even in FAI (I believe that’s what Pete Collinson flew in the
finals this year). </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It’s not that we’re not listening… We’re simply trying to
avoid mistakes from the past and make as sure as we can that the rule changes
won’t have disastrous unintended consequences. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The rule change that is currently on the ballot provides a
sizeable variance for those in the lower classes to help accommodate aging
aircraft (which seem to gain weight magically), repaired used aircraft, and
beginning builders….without changing the goal (and therefore the designers
goal) of maintaining a 5KG weight limit.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Ok…off my soapbox. Sorry for the diatribe.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>-Mark </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>CB for Dist 3 </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mark Atwood</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> President</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite
130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 </span><b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> Fax:
440.684.3102</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1351F3'><a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
</span><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>|</span></b><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1351F3'><a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dr Mike<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Lance,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Regarding the CB, I agree with you that those generalities are
anal comments. Most of the guys are giving freely of their time and we
are lucky to have them. On the weight issue, the 11 pounds is a bit
restricting. When that rule was made, planes had a 60 inch span, were 48
inches long and weighed 7 lbs. now they are volumetrically double or
triple so the wing loading is the same or lighter. Needs to go up at
least a pound or two.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Mike </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Patterndude<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I
have a 10 lb e-symphony, there are low 10 lb Evo's and both these planes are
super rigid an tough. There are e planes that I'm afraid to touch because of
fragility and they cost more too. Point is, the consumer has choices and don't
need to fly a dangerous airframe. They choose to. Remember the glow Impacts
that lost their tail in a snap but hundreds were sold AFTER this fact was known
on this list? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>As
a CB guy I don't like being generalized against. I ask for input all the time.
Even call people and tell people where my head is at all the time without
preaching. <br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
On Aug 18, 2010, at 8:11 PM, Tim Taylor <<a
href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com">timsautopro@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>We can always ignore it, we've done that for years unless
you're in the top 3-5 at the Nats.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>In this day and age of instant communication we no
longer need a Contest Board to decide what we do or not. With all
due respect to the CB we don't need you guys anymore, we can poll the
membership directly and set the rules. Far more representative that way.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The only time I ever tried to talk to a CB member about a
rules proposal in person I got the old "I know better than you and I'm
going to do what I want so we don't need to discuss
it." He then refused to even talk about anything at that
point. Left a very bad taste I tell you.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Tim<br>
--- On <b>Wed, 8/18/10, Dave Burton <i><<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 3.0pt;
margin-left:3.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
From: Dave Burton <<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 7:53 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The rules proposal to eliminate the weight limit didn't
make the first CB<br>
vote. Too bad IMO!<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Ron Hansen<br>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:35 PM<br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
I'm concerned that these new electric only planes that are designed to make<br>
weight won't hold up to the normal wear and tear of an average intermediate<br>
or advanced pilot or flying off of a rough grass runway. Is this a
valid<br>
concern? I think so but maybe I'm over reacting. That is why I'm
in favor<br>
of eliminating the weight limit altogether. The proposal to slightly
raise<br>
the weight limit won't allow someone to fly an electric Focus II for<br>
example.<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of J N Hiller<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:17 PM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
I've been following this with interest. E-power is looking better all the<br>
time and I probably will make the change. I like to build prefer a wood<br>
airplane. About how much total weight is in a suitable E-power system or<br>
empty airframe ready for radio etc? Any numbers readily available would be<br>
helpful in understanding the distribution of weight.<br>
Thanks<br>
Jim Hiller<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]On
Behalf Of Dave<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:02 AM<br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
And to recall.....that is the Spark with custom wings and stabs, which saves<br>
substantial weight? There are very few unmodified kits available that
are<br>
RTF electric at 10.25. There are some airframe examples for which glow
/<br>
electric are similar weight, but that is not the norm - not yet anyway - my<br>
opinion.<br>
<br>
My electric Bravo was 10 lbs even at the 2009 NATs (only 4 oz more than the<br>
Vivat I flew in 2005) and I would be scared of the structure if it were any<br>
lighter. Of course it could be lighter still IF I went from 5000 to 4350<br>
lipos (~6 oz) and ditched the dual RX batts and Vregs (~2 oz) and used<br>
lighter ESC and wiring (~ 2 oz).<br>
<br>
Point being....even tho 10 lb electrics are possible, and becoming more<br>
common, it is still pretty easy to build electrics at 11+ lbs without<br>
careful planning and attention to detail. I think it will become a<br>
non-issue soon enough.....even in Europe and Asia electrics are coming on<br>
strong.....so the glow kits will become increasingly scarce.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:06 AM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
I would argue that you can't "disregard" the airframe given that an
all<br>
electric airframe is much lighter.<br>
<br>
My answer to the question? There is almost no
difference. I'm flying a<br>
full 2M plane that weighs 10lbs 4oz with light batteries, 10lbs, 8oz with<br>
very heavy batteries. My two Black Magics with glow weighed
10lbs 6oz and<br>
10lbs 8oz RTF minus CDI (add approx 4oz for that).<br>
<br>
I believe we're just now seeing full electric designs that are optimized for<br>
weight and are coming in light. Prior to that, many of the
designs still<br>
had unnecessary structure as a legacy from Glow. I'm pretty sure that<br>
evolution is not complete yet either.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Mark Atwood<br>
Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President<br>
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124<br>
Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Fax: 440.684.3102<br>
<a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
| <a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" target="_blank">www.paragon-inc.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:58 AM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
Tough question. Will you insist on using 30C lipos, when 20C lipos<br>
are much lighter? Do you plan on using a particular motor? Motor<br>
weights vary substantially. Some ESCs are a lot heavier than others.<br>
<br>
My guess would be that the weight difference between a complete<br>
electric-power system and a complete glow-power system, disregarding<br>
the airplane, would be 10-16 ounces.<br>
<br>
Ron<br>
<br>
On Aug 17, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Dr Mike wrote:<br>
<br>
> Ok so I am going to ask the question again... in your estimation<br>
> what is the<br>
> difference in weight between the complete electric power system and<br>
> the<br>
> complete glow system-disregarding the airplane?<br>
> Mike<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Ron<br>
> Van Putte<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:30 AM<br>
> To: General pattern discussion<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
><br>
> Dave WAS trying to show the difference between glow and electric.<br>
><br>
> Generally, airplanes that started out as glow-powered are heavier<br>
> than one for electric power, because of the vibration. The<br>
> difference between the two packages gets complicated. For glow,
you<br>
> include spinner, prop, engine, motor mount, ignition system, fuel<br>
> tubing (and fittings), fuel tank and anything else which is<br>
> exclusively for glow. For electric, you include spinner, prop,<br>
> motor, motor mount, ESC, wiring, lipo batteries and anything else<br>
> which is exclusively for electric. When you add it up, the weight<br>
> differences can be pretty dramatic. If you don't carefully select<br>
> all the components, you can easily add an unneeded 4 ounces to an<br>
> electric-powered airplane.<br>
><br>
> Ron<br>
><br>
> On Aug 17, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Dr Mike wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Thanks Dave, I am referring only to the power packages,not the<br>
>> planes. Those are what I am looking for, the difference between<br>
>> glow and electric.<br>
>><br>
>> Mike<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-?">mailto:nsrca-</a><br>
>> <a href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Dave<br>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:41 AM<br>
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> 12 oz +/-4 oz.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Exact number depends on a bunch of things -<br>
>><br>
>> - on the electric side, which motor, motor mounting, ESC, lipo, RX<br>
>> power system?<br>
>><br>
>> - was the plane originally built lighter for electric, or with more<br>
>> beef for glow?<br>
>><br>
>> - CDI / non CDI, type of mount, and what type of ignition and RX<br>
>> power?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> I can tell you that a number of Prestige planes have been built<br>
>> with various glow and electric power plants. For the most
part,<br>
>> the glow airframes are +4 oz to start with (the added beef for glow<br>
>> vibration). Most of the glow setups ended up at 9.5 lbs, +/- 4<br>
>> oz. Most of the electrics ended up at 10.25 lbs, +/- 4 oz.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Regards,<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Dave<br>
>><br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-?">mailto:nsrca-</a><br>
>> <a href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Dr Mike<br>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:33 AM<br>
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Could someone tell me the difference in weight between say a YS 1.7<br>
>> with muffler/tank,etc vs electric?<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks<br>
>><br>
>> Mike<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
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target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
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</div>
</blockquote>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div id="AOLMsgPart_4_6aa72cc4-ff5a-4007-983c-3a6e3c761012"><pre
style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a> </span></tt><o:p></o:p></pre></div>
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<div id="AOLMsgPart_4_cac2c933-26b9-4241-b15d-bbda5281f872"><pre
style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a> </span></tt><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></pre></div>
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