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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The challenge here is that rules of this nature, limiting rules,
be it in Pattern, Sailing, Stock car, whatever, are NOT in place to restrict
the average guy, they’re in place to restrict the innovator. The
guys that push the limit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>In our sport, the “average” guy is stuck pushing the
limit because he’s trying to copy and follow the innovators. We all
want the triple volumetric 2 meter bird because that’s what Chip/Andrew/Quique
and company have pushed the boundary’s too. A prophecy still makes
weight with nooooo problem. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>So the problem is simple. IF the rules change, it clearly
will help the average guy for a year or two. But then the innovators will
once again push the limits (they wouldn’t BE limits if no one was
pushing) and we would see new designs that the average guy can’t easily
keep within the rules.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bipes have not really caught on because they’re too
difficult to make weight with. Only the very best builders with very few
limits on funding for all the best and lightest equipment have made them
work. Add a pound and that will very likely change…to where all the
top guys can make them work, which will then push the average guy to try and
make them work. At the end of the day, all it adds is cost as we
obsolete a whole generation of viable aircraft to the dumpster. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>All one needs to do for confirmation on that is to review the
evolution of aircraft that occurred when we removed the LAST limiter…engine
displacement. Prior to that, weight was only a secondary limiter
because displacement restricted how big of a plane you could carry
around. Once removed, we had 10 years of growing aircraft and growing
engines. All costing more, NOT just because the new stuff was more
expensive…that’s just natural inflation and evolution, but because
the lifespan of a model was shorter. Designs changed SIGNIFICANTLY
every year.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Finally, we’re back to a semi stable development cycle
which has aircraft like the Integral enjoying a 5-6 year run and is still
considered competitive even in FAI (I believe that’s what Pete Collinson
flew in the finals this year). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It’s not that we’re not listening… We’re
simply trying to avoid mistakes from the past and make as sure as we can that
the rule changes won’t have disastrous unintended consequences. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The rule change that is currently on the ballot provides a
sizeable variance for those in the lower classes to help accommodate aging
aircraft (which seem to gain weight magically), repaired used aircraft, and
beginning builders….without changing the goal (and therefore the designers
goal) of maintaining a 5KG weight limit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Ok…off my soapbox. Sorry for the diatribe.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>-Mark <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>CB for Dist 3 <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mark Atwood</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> President</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite
130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 </span><b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> Fax:
440.684.3102</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1351F3'><a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
</span><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>|</span></b><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1351F3'><a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/">www.paragon-inc.com</a></span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dr Mike<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Lance,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Regarding the CB, I agree with you that those generalities are
anal comments. Most of the guys are giving freely of their time and we
are lucky to have them. On the weight issue, the 11 pounds is a bit restricting.
When that rule was made, planes had a 60 inch span, were 48 inches long and
weighed 7 lbs. now they are volumetrically double or triple so the wing
loading is the same or lighter. Needs to go up at least a pound or two.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Mike <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Patterndude<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I have a 10 lb e-symphony, there are low 10 lb Evo's and
both these planes are super rigid an tough. There are e planes that I'm afraid
to touch because of fragility and they cost more too. Point is, the consumer
has choices and don't need to fly a dangerous airframe. They choose to. Remember
the glow Impacts that lost their tail in a snap but hundreds were sold AFTER
this fact was known on this list? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>As a CB guy I don't like being generalized against. I ask
for input all the time. Even call people and tell people where my head is at
all the time without preaching. <br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
On Aug 18, 2010, at 8:11 PM, Tim Taylor <<a
href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com">timsautopro@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>We can always ignore it, we've done that for years unless you're
in the top 3-5 at the Nats.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>In this day and age of instant communication we no
longer need a Contest Board to decide what we do or not. With all
due respect to the CB we don't need you guys anymore, we can poll the
membership directly and set the rules. Far more representative that way.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The only time I ever tried to talk to a CB member about a
rules proposal in person I got the old "I know better than you and I'm
going to do what I want so we don't need to discuss
it." He then refused to even talk about anything at that
point. Left a very bad taste I tell you.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Tim<br>
--- On <b>Wed, 8/18/10, Dave Burton <i><<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 3.0pt;
margin-left:3.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
From: Dave Burton <<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 7:53 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The rules proposal to eliminate the weight limit didn't
make the first CB<br>
vote. Too bad IMO!<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Ron Hansen<br>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:35 PM<br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
I'm concerned that these new electric only planes that are designed to make<br>
weight won't hold up to the normal wear and tear of an average intermediate<br>
or advanced pilot or flying off of a rough grass runway. Is this a
valid<br>
concern? I think so but maybe I'm over reacting. That is why I'm
in favor<br>
of eliminating the weight limit altogether. The proposal to slightly
raise<br>
the weight limit won't allow someone to fly an electric Focus II for<br>
example.<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of J N Hiller<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:17 PM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
I've been following this with interest. E-power is looking better all the<br>
time and I probably will make the change. I like to build prefer a wood<br>
airplane. About how much total weight is in a suitable E-power system or<br>
empty airframe ready for radio etc? Any numbers readily available would be<br>
helpful in understanding the distribution of weight.<br>
Thanks<br>
Jim Hiller<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]On
Behalf Of Dave<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:02 AM<br>
To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
And to recall.....that is the Spark with custom wings and stabs, which saves<br>
substantial weight? There are very few unmodified kits available that
are<br>
RTF electric at 10.25. There are some airframe examples for which glow
/<br>
electric are similar weight, but that is not the norm - not yet anyway - my<br>
opinion.<br>
<br>
My electric Bravo was 10 lbs even at the 2009 NATs (only 4 oz more than the<br>
Vivat I flew in 2005) and I would be scared of the structure if it were any<br>
lighter. Of course it could be lighter still IF I went from 5000 to
4350<br>
lipos (~6 oz) and ditched the dual RX batts and Vregs (~2 oz) and used<br>
lighter ESC and wiring (~ 2 oz).<br>
<br>
Point being....even tho 10 lb electrics are possible, and becoming more<br>
common, it is still pretty easy to build electrics at 11+ lbs without<br>
careful planning and attention to detail. I think it will become a<br>
non-issue soon enough.....even in Europe and Asia electrics are coming on<br>
strong.....so the glow kits will become increasingly scarce.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:06 AM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
I would argue that you can't "disregard" the airframe given that an
all<br>
electric airframe is much lighter.<br>
<br>
My answer to the question? There is almost no
difference. I'm flying a<br>
full 2M plane that weighs 10lbs 4oz with light batteries, 10lbs, 8oz with<br>
very heavy batteries. My two Black Magics with glow weighed
10lbs 6oz and<br>
10lbs 8oz RTF minus CDI (add approx 4oz for that).<br>
<br>
I believe we're just now seeing full electric designs that are optimized for<br>
weight and are coming in light. Prior to that, many of the
designs still<br>
had unnecessary structure as a legacy from Glow. I'm pretty sure that<br>
evolution is not complete yet either.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Mark Atwood<br>
Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President<br>
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124<br>
Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Fax: 440.684.3102<br>
<a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</a>
| <a href="http://www.paragon-inc.com">www.paragon-inc.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<br>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:58 AM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
<br>
Tough question. Will you insist on using 30C lipos, when 20C lipos<br>
are much lighter? Do you plan on using a particular motor? Motor<br>
weights vary substantially. Some ESCs are a lot heavier than others.<br>
<br>
My guess would be that the weight difference between a complete<br>
electric-power system and a complete glow-power system, disregarding<br>
the airplane, would be 10-16 ounces.<br>
<br>
Ron<br>
<br>
On Aug 17, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Dr Mike wrote:<br>
<br>
> Ok so I am going to ask the question again... in your estimation<br>
> what is the<br>
> difference in weight between the complete electric power system and<br>
> the<br>
> complete glow system-disregarding the airplane?<br>
> Mike<br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Ron<br>
> Van Putte<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:30 AM<br>
> To: General pattern discussion<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
><br>
> Dave WAS trying to show the difference between glow and electric.<br>
><br>
> Generally, airplanes that started out as glow-powered are heavier<br>
> than one for electric power, because of the vibration. The<br>
> difference between the two packages gets complicated. For glow,
you<br>
> include spinner, prop, engine, motor mount, ignition system, fuel<br>
> tubing (and fittings), fuel tank and anything else which is<br>
> exclusively for glow. For electric, you include spinner, prop,<br>
> motor, motor mount, ESC, wiring, lipo batteries and anything else<br>
> which is exclusively for electric. When you add it up, the weight<br>
> differences can be pretty dramatic. If you don't carefully select<br>
> all the components, you can easily add an unneeded 4 ounces to an<br>
> electric-powered airplane.<br>
><br>
> Ron<br>
><br>
> On Aug 17, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Dr Mike wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Thanks Dave, I am referring only to the power packages,not the<br>
>> planes. Those are what I am looking for, the difference between<br>
>> glow and electric.<br>
>><br>
>> Mike<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-<br>
>> <a href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Dave<br>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:41 AM<br>
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> 12 oz +/-4 oz.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Exact number depends on a bunch of things -<br>
>><br>
>> - on the electric side, which motor, motor mounting, ESC, lipo, RX<br>
>> power system?<br>
>><br>
>> - was the plane originally built lighter for electric, or with more<br>
>> beef for glow?<br>
>><br>
>> - CDI / non CDI, type of mount, and what type of ignition and RX<br>
>> power?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> I can tell you that a number of Prestige planes have been built<br>
>> with various glow and electric power plants. For the most
part,<br>
>> the glow airframes are +4 oz to start with (the added beef for glow<br>
>> vibration). Most of the glow setups ended up at 9.5 lbs, +/- 4<br>
>> oz. Most of the electrics ended up at 10.25 lbs, +/- 4 oz.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Regards,<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Dave<br>
>><br>
>> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-<br>
>> <a href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Dr Mike<br>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:33 AM<br>
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<br>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Could someone tell me the difference in weight between say a YS 1.7<br>
>> with muffler/tank,etc vs electric?<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks<br>
>><br>
>> Mike<br>
>><br>
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