<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV>Derrek,</DIV>
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<DIV>Six months ago or more I corresponded with the AMA and posted a "rant" to this list regarding CB members contact means...</DIV>
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<DIV>On the AMA site, there are names and addresses...this means I have to write and mail a letter or show up at the front door of a CB members house....kind of ridiculous in the digital age. Each CB member should have an AMA e-mail address, or a link to fill out an online form that forward to the CB member when submitted.</DIV>
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<DIV>You guys say you want feedback, but neither you, nor the AMA provides a channel to do so.....</DIV>
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<DIV>Yea, I know I could hunt around and probalby find an e-mail address and probably even a phone number for you guys, but it shouldn't be that way...</DIV>
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<DIV>Richard</DIV>
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wed, August 18, 2010 8:46:36 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR></FONT><BR>
<DIV>Contest board members have been asking for input. Please provide it to them.</DIV>
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<DIV><BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Aug 18, 2010, at 8:35 PM, Patterndude <<A href="mailto:lance.vannostrand@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:lance.vannostrand@gmail.com">lance.vannostrand@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
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<DIV>I have a 10 lb e-symphony, there are low 10 lb Evo's and both these planes are super rigid an tough. There are e planes that I'm afraid to touch because of fragility and they cost more too. Point is, the consumer has choices and don't need to fly a dangerous airframe. They choose to. Remember the glow Impacts that lost their tail in a snap but hundreds were sold AFTER this fact was known on this list? </DIV>
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<DIV>As a CB guy I don't like being generalized against. I ask for input all the time. Even call people and tell people where my head is at all the time without preaching. <BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Aug 18, 2010, at 8:11 PM, Tim Taylor <<A href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com"><A href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com">timsautopro@yahoo.com</A></A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
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<DIV>We can always ignore it, we've done that for years unless you're in the top 3-5 at the Nats.</DIV>
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<DIV>In this day and age of instant communication we no longer need a Contest Board to decide what we do or not. With all due respect to the CB we don't need you guys anymore, we can poll the membership directly and set the rules. Far more representative that way.</DIV>
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<DIV>The only time I ever tried to talk to a CB member about a rules proposal in person I got the old "I know better than you and I'm going to do what I want so we don't need to discuss it." He then refused to even talk about anything at that point. Left a very bad taste I tell you.<BR></DIV>
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<DIV>Tim<BR>--- On <B>Wed, 8/18/10, Dave Burton <I><<A href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"><A href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</A></A>></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Dave Burton <<A href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"><A href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</A></A>><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR>To: "'General pattern discussion'" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A></A>><BR>Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 7:53 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV class=plainMail>The rules proposal to eliminate the weight limit didn't make the first CB<BR>vote. Too bad IMO!<BR>Dave<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A><BR>[mailto:<A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A>] On Behalf Of Ron Hansen<BR>Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:35 PM<BR>To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>I'm concerned that these new electric only planes that are designed to make<BR>weight won't hold up to the normal wear and tear of an average intermediate<BR>or advanced pilot or flying off of a rough grass runway. Is this a valid<BR>concern? I think so but maybe I'm over reacting. That is why I'm in favor<BR>of eliminating the weight limit altogether. The proposal to slightly raise<BR>the weight limit won't allow someone to fly an electric Focus II for<BR>example.<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A><BR>[mailto:<A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A>] On Behalf Of J N Hiller<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:17 PM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight
difference<BR><BR>I've been following this with interest. E-power is looking better all the<BR>time and I probably will make the change. I like to build prefer a wood<BR>airplane. About how much total weight is in a suitable E-power system or<BR>empty airframe ready for radio etc? Any numbers readily available would be<BR>helpful in understanding the distribution of weight.<BR>Thanks<BR>Jim Hiller<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A>]On Behalf Of Dave<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:02 AM<BR>To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>And to recall.....that is the Spark with custom wings and stabs, which saves<BR>substantial weight? There are very few unmodified kits available that are<BR>RTF electric at 10.25. There are some airframe examples for which glow /<BR>electric are similar weight, but that is not the norm - not yet anyway - my<BR>opinion.<BR><BR>My electric
Bravo was 10 lbs even at the 2009 NATs (only 4 oz more than the<BR>Vivat I flew in 2005) and I would be scared of the structure if it were any<BR>lighter. Of course it could be lighter still IF I went from 5000 to 4350<BR>lipos (~6 oz) and ditched the dual RX batts and Vregs (~2 oz) and used<BR>lighter ESC and wiring (~ 2 oz).<BR><BR>Point being....even tho 10 lb electrics are possible, and becoming more<BR>common, it is still pretty easy to build electrics at 11+ lbs without<BR>careful planning and attention to detail. I think it will become a<BR>non-issue soon enough.....even in Europe and Asia electrics are coming on<BR>strong.....so the glow kits will become increasingly scarce.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Dave<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A><BR>[mailto:<A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A>] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:06 AM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>I would argue that you can't "disregard" the airframe
given that an all<BR>electric airframe is much lighter.<BR><BR>My answer to the question? There is almost no difference. I'm flying a<BR>full 2M plane that weighs 10lbs 4oz with light batteries, 10lbs, 8oz with<BR>very heavy batteries. My two Black Magics with glow weighed 10lbs 6oz and<BR>10lbs 8oz RTF minus CDI (add approx 4oz for that).<BR><BR>I believe we're just now seeing full electric designs that are optimized for<BR>weight and are coming in light. Prior to that, many of the designs still<BR>had unnecessary structure as a legacy from Glow. I'm pretty sure that<BR>evolution is not complete yet either.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Mark Atwood<BR>Paragon Consulting, Inc. | President<BR>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124<BR>Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Fax: 440.684.3102<BR><A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com"
rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com"><A href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</A></A> | <A href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank><A href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.paragon-inc.com</A></A><BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A><BR>[mailto:<A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A>] On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:58 AM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>Tough question. Will you insist on using 30C lipos, when 20C lipos<BR>are much lighter? Do you plan on using a particular motor? Motor<BR>weights vary substantially. Some ESCs are a lot heavier than
others.<BR><BR>My guess would be that the weight difference between a complete<BR>electric-power system and a complete glow-power system, disregarding<BR>the airplane, would be 10-16 ounces.<BR><BR>Ron<BR><BR>On Aug 17, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Dr Mike wrote:<BR><BR>> Ok so I am going to ask the question again... in your estimation<BR>> what is the<BR>> difference in weight between the complete electric power system and<BR>> the<BR>> complete glow system-disregarding the airplane?<BR>> Mike<BR>><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: <A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A><BR>> [mailto:<A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A>] On Behalf Of Ron<BR>> Van Putte<BR>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:30 AM<BR>> To: General pattern discussion<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR>><BR>> Dave WAS trying to show the difference between glow and electric.<BR>><BR>> Generally, airplanes that started out as glow-powered are heavier<BR>> than one for electric power,
because of the vibration. The<BR>> difference between the two packages gets complicated. For glow, you<BR>> include spinner, prop, engine, motor mount, ignition system, fuel<BR>> tubing (and fittings), fuel tank and anything else which is<BR>> exclusively for glow. For electric, you include spinner, prop,<BR>> motor, motor mount, ESC, wiring, lipo batteries and anything else<BR>> which is exclusively for electric. When you add it up, the weight<BR>> differences can be pretty dramatic. If you don't carefully select<BR>> all the components, you can easily add an unneeded 4 ounces to an<BR>> electric-powered airplane.<BR>><BR>> Ron<BR>><BR>> On Aug 17, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Dr Mike wrote:<BR>><BR>>> Thanks Dave, I am referring only to the power packages,not the<BR>>> planes. Those are what I am looking for, the difference between<BR>>> glow and
electric.<BR>>><BR>>> Mike<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: <A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A> [mailto:nsrca-<BR>>> <A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A>] On Behalf Of Dave<BR>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:41 AM<BR>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> 12 oz +/-4 oz.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Exact number depends on a bunch of things -<BR>>><BR>>> - on the electric side, which motor, motor mounting, ESC, lipo, RX<BR>>> power system?<BR>>><BR>>> - was the plane originally built lighter for electric, or with more<BR>>> beef for glow?<BR>>><BR>>> - CDI / non CDI, type of mount, and what type of ignition and RX<BR>>> power?<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> I can tell you that a number of Prestige planes have been built<BR>>> with various glow and electric power plants. For the most
part,<BR>>> the glow airframes are +4 oz to start with (the added beef for glow<BR>>> vibration). Most of the glow setups ended up at 9.5 lbs, +/- 4<BR>>> oz. Most of the electrics ended up at 10.25 lbs, +/- 4 oz.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Regards,<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Dave<BR>>><BR>>> From: <A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A> [mailto:nsrca-<BR>>> <A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><A href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A></A>] On Behalf Of Dr Mike<BR>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:33 AM<BR>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Could someone tell me the difference in weight between say a YS 1.7<BR>>> with muffler/tank,etc vs electric?<BR>>><BR>>> Thanks<BR>>><BR>>> Mike<BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> <A href="http://us.mc623.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" rel=nofollow
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