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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>How about Dale Arnold? Isn't he a sitting
member of the Board now? Or is he not a NSRCA member? Just
curious.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bill glaze</FONT></DIV>
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style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=derekkoopowitz@gmail.com href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com">Derek
Koopowitz</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:30
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight
difference</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>One current officer is on the board - me. I also suspect
that several of the current board members are NOT NSRCA members.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 7:04 AM, Dave Burton <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-US vlink="purple" link="blue" bgcolor="white">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In theory,
but if you look at the CB make up, it’s heavily NSRCA officers and members.
</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Tony<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:47 AM</SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR><B>To:</B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</DIV></DIV>
<P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">One thing many
NSRCA members don’t realize is that the rules for pattern in the USA are not
NSRCA’s rules. They are AMA’s rules. AMA selects and uses the
contest board to monitor rules from all AMA members, not just NSRCA
members. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Tony Stillman,
President</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Radio South,
Inc.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">139 Altama
Connector, Box 322</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Brunswick,
GA 31525</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">1-800-962-7802</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="http://www.radiosouthrc.com"
target=_blank>www.radiosouthrc.com</A></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dr Mike<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:42 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
weight difference</SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Lance,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Regarding
the CB, I agree with you that those generalities are anal comments.
Most of the guys are giving freely of their time and we are lucky to have
them. On the weight issue, the 11 pounds is a bit restricting.
When that rule was made, planes had a 60 inch span, were 48 inches long and
weighed 7 lbs. now they are volumetrically double or triple so the
wing loading is the same or lighter. Needs to go up at least a pound
or two.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Mike
</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Patterndude<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:35
PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I have a 10 lb e-symphony, there are low 10 lb Evo's and
both these planes are super rigid an tough. There are e planes that I'm
afraid to touch because of fragility and they cost more too. Point is, the
consumer has choices and don't need to fly a dangerous airframe. They choose
to. Remember the glow Impacts that lost their tail in a snap but hundreds
were sold AFTER this fact was known on this list? </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>As a CB guy I don't like being generalized against. I ask
for input all the time. Even call people and tell people where my head is at
all the time without preaching. <BR><BR>Sent from my
iPhone</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><BR>On Aug 18, 2010, at 8:11
PM, Tim Taylor <<A href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com"
target=_blank>timsautopro@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:</P></DIV>
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<DIV>
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>We can always ignore it, we've done that for
years unless you're in the top 3-5 at the Nats.</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>In this day and age of instant communication
we no longer need a Contest Board to decide what we do or
not. With all due respect to the CB we don't need you guys
anymore, we can poll the membership directly and set the rules. Far
more representative that way.</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>The only time I ever tried to talk to a CB member
about a rules proposal in person I got the old "I know better than
you and I'm going to do what I want so we don't need to discuss
it." He then refused to even talk about anything at that
point. Left a very bad taste I tell you.</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Tim<BR>--- On <B>Wed, 8/18/10, Dave Burton
<I><<A href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"
target=_blank>burtona@atmc.net</A>></I></B> wrote:</P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><BR>From: Dave
Burton <<A href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net"
target=_blank>burtona@atmc.net</A>><BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR>To: "'General pattern
discussion'" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Date:
Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 7:53 PM</P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>The rules proposal to eliminate the weight
limit didn't make the first CB<BR>vote. Too bad
IMO!<BR>Dave<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On
Behalf Of Ron Hansen<BR>Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:35
PM<BR>To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>I'm concerned that
these new electric only planes that are designed to make<BR>weight
won't hold up to the normal wear and tear of an average
intermediate<BR>or advanced pilot or flying off of a rough grass
runway. Is this a valid<BR>concern? I think so but
maybe I'm over reacting. That is why I'm in favor<BR>of
eliminating the weight limit altogether. The proposal to
slightly raise<BR>the weight limit won't allow someone to fly an
electric Focus II for<BR>example.<BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On
Behalf Of J N Hiller<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:17
PM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>I've been following
this with interest. E-power is looking better all the<BR>time and
I probably will make the change. I like to build prefer a
wood<BR>airplane. About how much total weight is in a suitable
E-power system or<BR>empty airframe ready for radio etc? Any
numbers readily available would be<BR>helpful in understanding the
distribution of weight.<BR>Thanks<BR>Jim
Hiller<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]On
Behalf Of Dave<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:02 AM<BR>To:
'General pattern discussion'<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
weight difference<BR><BR>And to recall.....that is the Spark with
custom wings and stabs, which saves<BR>substantial weight?
There are very few unmodified kits available that are<BR>RTF
electric at 10.25. There are some airframe examples for
which glow /<BR>electric are similar weight, but that is not the
norm - not yet anyway - my<BR>opinion.<BR><BR>My electric Bravo
was 10 lbs even at the 2009 NATs (only 4 oz more than the<BR>Vivat
I flew in 2005) and I would be scared of the structure if it were
any<BR>lighter. Of course it could be lighter still IF I
went from 5000 to 4350<BR>lipos (~6 oz) and ditched the dual RX
batts and Vregs (~2 oz) and used<BR>lighter ESC and wiring (~ 2
oz).<BR><BR>Point being....even tho 10 lb electrics are possible,
and becoming more<BR>common, it is still pretty easy to build
electrics at 11+ lbs without<BR>careful planning and attention to
detail. I think it will become a<BR>non-issue soon
enough.....even in Europe and Asia electrics are coming
on<BR>strong.....so the glow kits will become increasingly
scarce.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Dave<BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On
Behalf Of Atwood, Mark<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:06
AM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>I would argue that you
can't "disregard" the airframe given that an all<BR>electric
airframe is much lighter.<BR><BR>My answer to the question?
There is almost no difference. I'm flying
a<BR>full 2M plane that weighs 10lbs 4oz with light batteries,
10lbs, 8oz with<BR>very heavy batteries. My two
Black Magics with glow weighed 10lbs 6oz and<BR>10lbs 8oz RTF
minus CDI (add approx 4oz for that).<BR><BR>I believe we're just
now seeing full electric designs that are optimized for<BR>weight
and are coming in light. Prior to that, many of
the designs still<BR>had unnecessary structure as a legacy from
Glow. I'm pretty sure that<BR>evolution is not complete yet
either.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Mark Atwood<BR>Paragon Consulting,
Inc. | President<BR>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130,
Cleveland Ohio, 44124<BR>Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 |
Fax: 440.684.3102<BR><A href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com"
target=_blank>mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</A> | <A
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com"
target=_blank>www.paragon-inc.com</A><BR><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On
Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:58
AM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>Tough question.
Will you insist on using 30C lipos, when 20C lipos<BR>are much
lighter? Do you plan on using a particular motor?
Motor<BR>weights vary substantially. Some ESCs are a lot
heavier than others.<BR><BR>My guess would be that the weight
difference between a complete<BR>electric-power system and a
complete glow-power system, disregarding<BR>the airplane, would be
10-16 ounces.<BR><BR>Ron<BR><BR>On Aug 17, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Dr
Mike wrote:<BR><BR>> Ok so I am going to ask the question
again... in your estimation<BR>> what is the<BR>> difference
in weight between the complete electric power system and<BR>>
the<BR>> complete glow system-disregarding the
airplane?<BR>> Mike<BR>><BR>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>> From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On
Behalf Of Ron<BR>> Van Putte<BR>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17,
2010 8:30 AM<BR>> To: General pattern discussion<BR>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR>><BR>>
Dave WAS trying to show the difference between glow and
electric.<BR>><BR>> Generally, airplanes that started out as
glow-powered are heavier<BR>> than one for electric power,
because of the vibration. The<BR>> difference between the
two packages gets complicated. For glow, you<BR>> include
spinner, prop, engine, motor mount, ignition system, fuel<BR>>
tubing (and fittings), fuel tank and anything else which
is<BR>> exclusively for glow. For electric, you include
spinner, prop,<BR>> motor, motor mount, ESC, wiring, lipo
batteries and anything else<BR>> which is exclusively for
electric. When you add it up, the weight<BR>> differences
can be pretty dramatic. If you don't carefully
select<BR>> all the components, you can easily add an unneeded
4 ounces to an<BR>> electric-powered airplane.<BR>><BR>>
Ron<BR>><BR>> On Aug 17, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Dr Mike
wrote:<BR>><BR>>> Thanks Dave, I am referring only to the
power packages,not the<BR>>> planes. Those are what I am
looking for, the difference between<BR>>> glow and
electric.<BR>>><BR>>>
Mike<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-"
target=_blank>nsrca-</A><BR>>> <A
href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of
Dave<BR>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:41
AM<BR>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight
difference<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> 12 oz
+/-4 oz.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Exact
number depends on a bunch of things -<BR>>><BR>>> - on
the electric side, which motor, motor mounting, ESC, lipo,
RX<BR>>> power system?<BR>>><BR>>> - was the
plane originally built lighter for electric, or with
more<BR>>> beef for glow?<BR>>><BR>>> - CDI /
non CDI, type of mount, and what type of ignition and
RX<BR>>>
power?<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> I can tell
you that a number of Prestige planes have been built<BR>>>
with various glow and electric power plants. For the most
part,<BR>>> the glow airframes are +4 oz to start with (the
added beef for glow<BR>>> vibration). Most of the glow
setups ended up at 9.5 lbs, +/- 4<BR>>> oz. Most of
the electrics ended up at 10.25 lbs, +/- 4
oz.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
Regards,<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
Dave<BR>>><BR>>> From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:<A href="mailto:nsrca-"
target=_blank>nsrca-</A><BR>>> <A
href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of
Dr Mike<BR>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:33
AM<BR>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>>>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] weight
difference<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Could
someone tell me the difference in weight between say a YS
1.7<BR>>> with muffler/tank,etc vs
electric?<BR>>><BR>>> Thanks<BR>>><BR>>>
Mike<BR>>><BR>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>>
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<DIV class=h5>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG -
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<DIV class=im>Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3080 - Release
Date: 08/19/10 02:35:00</DIV>
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