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<BODY style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-RIGHT: 10px; PADDING-TOP: 15px"
id=MailContainerBody lang=EN-US leftMargin=0 link=blue topMargin=0 vLink=blue
CanvasTabStop="true" name="Compose message area">
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>You can't build it LIKE a Black Magic much bigger and
make weight. Stressed skin balsa/FG laminates are how to do it. I've
mentioned this a few times on RCU, but just look at how Wistmodel does it.
The CA Integral copies the technique fairly well for the fuselage, but does a
mediocre job with the wing structure. If they can do it mostly right for
about $1k, that ought to demonstrate how someone can do it 100% right very about
the same dollars.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title="mailto:rcpilot@wowway.com CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:rcpilot@wowway.com">Ron Hansen</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:19 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ed, I’m not sure I
agree but lets assume you are correct. You can’t build a balsa 2m any
bigger than the black magic and make weight. If the volumes get any bigger
everyone will be forced to buy high dollar composites built most likely
overseas. Not sure that is healthy for the hobby.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Ed Alt<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:05
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"
class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Actually, larger fuselage volumes
lend themselves very well to good structutal integrity. The inverse
applies for skinny stuff. Provided that correct design principles are
followed, and that there is good quality control over manufacturing processes,
there is no reason for concern with large volume fuselages being strong
enough. However, as soon as you raise the weight limit, you then need
a beefier structure to carry it. So who wants that?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal
align=center><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"
class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From: rcpilot@wowway.com<BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:53:00
-0400<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=navy size=2
face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
agree Mike. I have a hard time believing that the volume of the planes can
get much bigger before they start exploding in the air. Eliminate the
weight limit. If the overseas manufacturers keep making planes to meet the
11 lb limit so be it. Some manufacturers in the US may make kits that are
better suited for NSRCA and some will not. Either way the selection
increases. I’m concerned these planes are getting more and more
fragile. This is defeating one of the benefits of going electric (air
frame longevity).</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=navy size=2
face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Dr Mike<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:53
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> 'General pattern
discussion'<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">IMO, the weight
limit restriction has driven up the cost of aircraft and made construction more
difficult for even an accomplished builder. It also creates a potentially
unsafe vessel because of trying to make weight. What is wrong with being
innovative? The weight rule is obsolete and restrictive. The planes
are becoming cookie-cutter, boring, expensive look alikes that have minute
differences. My voice is to make the change. Seems like in all
endeavors those that are the loudest are the ones saying NO CHANGE!!!.
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">My 2
cents.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Mike
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Atwood, Mark<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:18
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I actually feel
that you’re making my point in a way. When we were restricted by engine
displacement the size and weight were not in contention as a limiting factor
(though they were, just that without more power, they didn’t come into
play).</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The argument at
the time of removing the engine displacement was EXACTLY the one being
made today (only internationally instead of just domestically). Which was
that engine displacement rule was increasing costs because engine manufacturers
were trying to get the last 1% of power out of the existing displacement.
Thus the $300 OS Hanno Special which was an outrageous price for a .61
engine. YS was doing the same on the 4 stroke side (another dubious rule
change to provide equity between 4 stroke and 2 stroke power
plants). </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">So the goal was to
allow any engine…thus letting the “average” guy fly a cheaper, but larger
displacement engine. Did that work? Is anyone successfully running
the ST 2300?? Or did we just get bigger planes that require bigger
engines…up until we hit the size/weight limit and now we get back to expensive
Engines with more expensive CDI units?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">What I don’t
understand is that people don’t think the planes can get any bigger because of
the 2m rule. My Arch Nemesis was a FULL 2m airplane in 1997… at
9lbs. We didn’t think they could get any bigger then
either. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">All of that said,
Contrary to Tim’s experience, I do try hard to listen to members of my district.
ALL of them…NOT just the vocal ones that post prolifically on RCU or this
list. And there are far more in favor of maintaining the weight rule than
eliminating it, or substantially raising it. MOST…and I do mean MOST,
really don’t care. “tell me the rules, and I’ll play by
them”. That group, and it’s by far the largest group, wants
consistency year to year to year. That saves them the most money as they
get a much longer lifespan from their investment.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">-M</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><B><FONT color=black size=2
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mark
Atwood</SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><B><FONT color=black size=1
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Paragon
Consulting, Inc.</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT color=black size=1 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </SPAN></FONT><B><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">|</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=1 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> President</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=black size=1
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt">5885 Landerbrook Drive
Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black
size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=black size=1
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt">Phone: 440.684.3101
x102 </SPAN></FONT><B><FONT color=black size=1 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">|</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=1 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt"> Fax:
440.684.3102</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1351f3 size=1
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: #1351f3; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt"><A
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</A>
</SPAN></FONT><B><FONT color=black size=1 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">|</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=1 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=#1351f3 size=1 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: #1351f3; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt"><A
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/"
target=_blank>www.paragon-inc.com</A></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Dave Burton<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:49
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> 'General pattern
discussion'<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I couldn’t
disagree more.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Two meter rule
restricts the size of pattern planes.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Noise rule
restricts the impact pattern planes have on neighbors.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Both of these are
good rules IMO.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The present
weight limit only drives up the cost and compromises
safety.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">It’s one of the
reasons people are spending $4,000+ on airframes and driving away people who
might fly pattern but aren’t willing/able to due to the cost.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">From the 1930’s
rules, we increased the size of planes and engines tremendously and kept a
weight rule the same as when we flew .45 – 61 glow engines.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Then we weigh
electric planes with fuel, glow planes empty.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Makes no
sense!</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave
Burton</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Atwood, Mark<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:05
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The challenge here
is that rules of this nature, limiting rules, be it in Pattern, Sailing, Stock
car, whatever, are NOT in place to restrict the average guy, they’re in place to
restrict the innovator. The guys that push the limit.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In our sport, the
“average” guy is stuck pushing the limit because he’s trying to copy and follow
the innovators. We all want the triple volumetric 2 meter bird because
that’s what Chip/Andrew/Quique and company have pushed the boundary’s too.
A prophecy still makes weight with nooooo problem.
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">So the problem is
simple. IF the rules change, it clearly will help the average guy for a
year or two. But then the innovators will once again push the limits (they
wouldn’t BE limits if no one was pushing) and we would see new designs that the
average guy can’t easily keep within the rules.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Bipes have not
really caught on because they’re too difficult to make weight with. Only
the very best builders with very few limits on funding for all the best and
lightest equipment have made them work. Add a pound and that will very
likely change…to where all the top guys can make them work, which will then push
the average guy to try and make them work. At the end of the day,
all it adds is cost as we obsolete a whole generation of viable aircraft to the
dumpster. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">All one needs to
do for confirmation on that is to review the evolution of aircraft that occurred
when we removed the LAST limiter…engine displacement. Prior to that,
weight was only a secondary limiter because displacement restricted how big of a
plane you could carry around. Once removed, we had 10 years of growing
aircraft and growing engines. All costing more, NOT just because the new
stuff was more expensive…that’s just natural inflation and evolution, but
because the lifespan of a model was shorter. Designs changed
SIGNIFICANTLY every year.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Finally, we’re
back to a semi stable development cycle which has aircraft like the Integral
enjoying a 5-6 year run and is still considered competitive even in FAI (I
believe that’s what Pete Collinson flew in the finals this year).
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">It’s not that
we’re not listening… We’re simply trying to avoid mistakes from the past
and make as sure as we can that the rule changes won’t have disastrous
unintended consequences. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The rule change
that is currently on the ballot provides a sizeable variance for those in the
lower classes to help accommodate aging aircraft (which seem to gain weight
magically), repaired used aircraft, and beginning builders….without changing the
goal (and therefore the designers goal) of maintaining a 5KG weight
limit.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Ok…off my
soapbox. Sorry for the diatribe.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">-Mark
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">CB for Dist
3 </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><B><FONT color=black size=2
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mark
Atwood</SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><B><FONT color=black size=1
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Paragon
Consulting, Inc.</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT color=black size=1 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> </SPAN></FONT><B><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">|</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=1 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> President</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=black size=1
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt">5885 Landerbrook Drive
Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black
size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=black size=1
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt">Phone: 440.684.3101
x102 </SPAN></FONT><B><FONT color=black size=1 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">|</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=1 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt"> Fax:
440.684.3102</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1351f3 size=1
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: #1351f3; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt"><A
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</A>
</SPAN></FONT><B><FONT color=black size=1 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">|</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=1 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=#1351f3 size=1 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: #1351f3; FONT-SIZE: 8.5pt"><A
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/"
target=_blank>www.paragon-inc.com</A></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Dr Mike<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:42
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> 'General pattern
discussion'<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Lance,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Regarding the CB,
I agree with you that those generalities are anal comments. Most of the
guys are giving freely of their time and we are lucky to have them. On the
weight issue, the 11 pounds is a bit restricting. When that rule was made,
planes had a 60 inch span, were 48 inches long and weighed 7 lbs. now they
are volumetrically double or triple so the wing loading is the same or
lighter. Needs to go up at least a pound or two.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Mike
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT color=#1f497d size=2
face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Patterndude<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:35
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I have a 10 lb e-symphony,
there are low 10 lb Evo's and both these planes are super rigid an tough. There
are e planes that I'm afraid to touch because of fragility and they cost more
too. Point is, the consumer has choices and don't need to fly a dangerous
airframe. They choose to. Remember the glow Impacts that lost their tail in a
snap but hundreds were sold AFTER this fact was known on this list?
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">As a CB guy I don't like
being generalized against. I ask for input all the time. Even call people and
tell people where my head is at all the time without
preaching. <BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"
class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>On Aug 18, 2010, at 8:11 PM, Tim Taylor <<A
href="mailto:timsautopro@yahoo.com">timsautopro@yahoo.com</A>>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<TABLE style="WIDTH: 6.5in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=MsoNormalTable border=0
cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=624>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in"
vAlign=top>
<DIV>
<P class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">We can always ignore it, we've done that for
years unless you're in the top 3-5 at the Nats.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">In this day and age of instant
communication we no longer need a Contest Board to decide what
we do or not. With all due respect to the CB we don't need you
guys anymore, we can poll the membership directly and set the rules. Far
more representative that way.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The only time I ever tried to talk to a CB
member about a rules proposal in person I got the old "I know better
than you and I'm going to do what I want so we don't need to
discuss it." He then refused to even talk about anything at
that point. Left a very bad taste I tell you.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Tim<BR>--- On <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Wed, 8/18/10, Dave Burton <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><<A
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</A>></SPAN></I></SPAN></B>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>From: Dave
Burton <<A
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</A>><BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR>To: "'General pattern
discussion'" <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Date:
Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 7:53 PM</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=NormalWeb25><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The rules proposal to eliminate the weight
limit didn't make the first CB<BR>vote. Too bad
IMO!<BR>Dave<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Ron Hansen<BR>Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:35
PM<BR>To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>I'm concerned that these
new electric only planes that are designed to make<BR>weight won't
hold up to the normal wear and tear of an average intermediate<BR>or
advanced pilot or flying off of a rough grass runway. Is this a
valid<BR>concern? I think so but maybe I'm over reacting.
That is why I'm in favor<BR>of eliminating the weight limit
altogether. The proposal to slightly raise<BR>the weight limit
won't allow someone to fly an electric Focus II
for<BR>example.<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of J N Hiller<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:17
PM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>I've been following this
with interest. E-power is looking better all the<BR>time and I
probably will make the change. I like to build prefer a
wood<BR>airplane. About how much total weight is in a suitable E-power
system or<BR>empty airframe ready for radio etc? Any numbers readily
available would be<BR>helpful in understanding the distribution of
weight.<BR>Thanks<BR>Jim Hiller<BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]On
Behalf Of Dave<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:02 AM<BR>To:
'General pattern discussion'<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight
difference<BR><BR>And to recall.....that is the Spark with custom
wings and stabs, which saves<BR>substantial weight? There are
very few unmodified kits available that are<BR>RTF electric at
10.25. There are some airframe examples for which glow
/<BR>electric are similar weight, but that is not the norm - not yet
anyway - my<BR>opinion.<BR><BR>My electric Bravo was 10 lbs even at
the 2009 NATs (only 4 oz more than the<BR>Vivat I flew in 2005) and I
would be scared of the structure if it were any<BR>lighter. Of
course it could be lighter still IF I went from 5000 to 4350<BR>lipos
(~6 oz) and ditched the dual RX batts and Vregs (~2 oz) and
used<BR>lighter ESC and wiring (~ 2 oz).<BR><BR>Point being....even
tho 10 lb electrics are possible, and becoming more<BR>common, it is
still pretty easy to build electrics at 11+ lbs without<BR>careful
planning and attention to detail. I think it will become
a<BR>non-issue soon enough.....even in Europe and Asia electrics are
coming on<BR>strong.....so the glow kits will become increasingly
scarce.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Dave<BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:06
AM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>I would argue that you
can't "disregard" the airframe given that an all<BR>electric airframe
is much lighter.<BR><BR>My answer to the question? There is
almost no difference. I'm flying a<BR>full 2M plane
that weighs 10lbs 4oz with light batteries, 10lbs, 8oz with<BR>very
heavy batteries. My two Black Magics with glow
weighed 10lbs 6oz and<BR>10lbs 8oz RTF minus CDI (add approx 4oz for
that).<BR><BR>I believe we're just now seeing full electric designs
that are optimized for<BR>weight and are coming in
light. Prior to that, many of the designs
still<BR>had unnecessary structure as a legacy from Glow. I'm
pretty sure that<BR>evolution is not complete yet
either.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Mark Atwood<BR>Paragon Consulting, Inc.
| President<BR>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio,
44124<BR>Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 | Fax:
440.684.3102<BR><A
href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com">mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</A>
| <A href="http://www.paragon-inc.com"
target=_blank>www.paragon-inc.com</A><BR><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:58
AM<BR>To: General pattern discussion<BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR><BR>Tough question. Will
you insist on using 30C lipos, when 20C lipos<BR>are much
lighter? Do you plan on using a particular motor?
Motor<BR>weights vary substantially. Some ESCs are a lot heavier
than others.<BR><BR>My guess would be that the weight difference
between a complete<BR>electric-power system and a complete glow-power
system, disregarding<BR>the airplane, would be 10-16
ounces.<BR><BR>Ron<BR><BR>On Aug 17, 2010, at 8:51 AM, Dr Mike
wrote:<BR><BR>> Ok so I am going to ask the question again... in
your estimation<BR>> what is the<BR>> difference in weight
between the complete electric power system and<BR>> the<BR>>
complete glow system-disregarding the airplane?<BR>>
Mike<BR>><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
[mailto:<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Ron<BR>> Van Putte<BR>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17,
2010 8:30 AM<BR>> To: General pattern discussion<BR>> Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight difference<BR>><BR>> Dave WAS
trying to show the difference between glow and
electric.<BR>><BR>> Generally, airplanes that started out as
glow-powered are heavier<BR>> than one for electric power, because
of the vibration. The<BR>> difference between the two
packages gets complicated. For glow, you<BR>> include
spinner, prop, engine, motor mount, ignition system, fuel<BR>>
tubing (and fittings), fuel tank and anything else which is<BR>>
exclusively for glow. For electric, you include spinner,
prop,<BR>> motor, motor mount, ESC, wiring, lipo batteries and
anything else<BR>> which is exclusively for electric. When
you add it up, the weight<BR>> differences can be pretty
dramatic. If you don't carefully select<BR>> all the
components, you can easily add an unneeded 4 ounces to an<BR>>
electric-powered airplane.<BR>><BR>> Ron<BR>><BR>> On Aug
17, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Dr Mike wrote:<BR>><BR>>> Thanks Dave,
I am referring only to the power packages,not the<BR>>> planes.
Those are what I am looking for, the difference between<BR>>>
glow and electric.<BR>>><BR>>>
Mike<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-<BR>>> <A
href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Dave<BR>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:41
AM<BR>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>>> Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] weight
difference<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> 12 oz +/-4
oz.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Exact number
depends on a bunch of things -<BR>>><BR>>> - on the
electric side, which motor, motor mounting, ESC, lipo, RX<BR>>>
power system?<BR>>><BR>>> - was the plane originally built
lighter for electric, or with more<BR>>> beef for
glow?<BR>>><BR>>> - CDI / non CDI, type of mount, and what
type of ignition and RX<BR>>>
power?<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> I can tell you
that a number of Prestige planes have been built<BR>>> with
various glow and electric power plants. For the most
part,<BR>>> the glow airframes are +4 oz to start with (the
added beef for glow<BR>>> vibration). Most of the glow
setups ended up at 9.5 lbs, +/- 4<BR>>> oz. Most of the
electrics ended up at 10.25 lbs, +/- 4
oz.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
Regards,<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
Dave<BR>>><BR>>> From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-<BR>>> <A
href="mailto:discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Dr Mike<BR>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:33
AM<BR>>> To: 'General pattern discussion'<BR>>> Subject:
[NSRCA-discussion] weight
difference<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Could
someone tell me the difference in weight between say a YS
1.7<BR>>> with muffler/tank,etc vs
electric?<BR>>><BR>>> Thanks<BR>>><BR>>>
Mike<BR>>><BR>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>>
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target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>><BR>>
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