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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dave,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I disagree there is a contradiction. The rulebook says the
fuselage will show a definite break and separation from the flight path.
If the fuse pivots on the CG, both nose and tail or the entire fuse has
separated from the flight path. Now, if the CG continues the flight path,
the fuse has shown a break and separation from the flight path and the CG still
maintained the path of the maneuver. Just my opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Don<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 1:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>“….break and separation from the flight
path…..”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>“…….constant flight path through the
manoeuvre……”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Seems to me that the definition is contradictory. A break
could occur in the sense that there is a deviation between attitude and track,
but “separation from the flight path” and “constant flight
path” are contradictory. I would hope it is clear enough that snaps
absent of both pitch and yaw must be downgraded.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I would point out that a snap that finishes on the same heading,
but shows a minor line displacement has very little effect on the geometry of
the maneuver. Looking at a straight line of 400’……a
snap in the middle of the line would have to displace 50 feet (8 wingspans)
vertically or horizontally to change the line (from start to finish) by 15
degrees (1 point). I see no other guidance in the rulebook applicable to
how a line displacement should be downgraded.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dr Mike<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 11:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Good point, thanks Troy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Troy
Newman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 10:06 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Ken,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>It
still has to stay on flight path<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>“Snap rolls have the same judging criteria as axial
rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and <b>constant flight</b> path
through the manoeuvre is concerned.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>As Matt suggested this is not a discussion on we think it
should be, rather it is how the rule is written<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Troy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ken
Thompson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 7:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Glad
for that description...the way I originally understood it the plane was not
supposed to deviate from the flight path...always said that was impossible...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Ken</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net"
title="drmikedds@sbcglobal.net">Dr Mike</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Monday, July 05,
2010 7:04 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Yes that is correct, thanks Matt.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Mike <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a
href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>;
<a href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>The F3A maneuver description may be inadequate and/or inaccurate,
however that doesn't much matter for the judge who has the ardeous task of
deciphering the snap. The description stands as is for this cycle and that's
how the World's judges will judge them to the best of their ability next year.
I urge all judges that judge F3A Semis and Finals at this year's Nats/Team Selection
contest to take heed of FAI description (not AMA) and judge accordingly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>In essence, Snaps should not zeroe'd as easily as they once
were; far cry from where it was just a couple years ago. I believe that's
the main reason the rule was written as indicated. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mike's point I think deals with bringing the Snap back out of
hibernation such that folks get a chance to re-read it and re-hash just in time
for the Team Selection; fresh in one's mind so to speak<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Matt K<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Woodward, Jim R (US SSA) <jim.woodward@baesystems.com><br>
To: 'f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us' <f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us>;
'nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org' <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Sun, Jul 4, 2010 4:27 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_2b2915a2-627e-40ff-95e8-6b80b9711a81">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Mike, I'm replying from a blackberry without the benefit of the
rulebook in front of me. I thought these were called "Flick Rolls"
now? I don't think any of us are equipped in the context of judging a 0.5
second manuever to determine if is "stalled" or
"unstalled." I think Jerry Budd posted on the nsrca list the last
dissertation on snaps, which from memory, pretty much proved the planes are not
stalled.<br>
<br>
Given you posted this, what do you want to see happen? Thx Jim W.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>: <a
href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us"><span style='color:blue'>f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</span></a>
<<a href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us"><span
style='color:blue'>f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</span></a>> <br>
<b>To</b>: 'General pattern discussion' <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><span style='color:blue'>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></a>>;
<a href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><span style='color:blue'>f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</span></a>
<<a href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><span style='color:blue'>f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</span></a>>
<br>
<b>Sent</b>: Sun Jul 04 17:11:46 2010<br>
<b>Subject</b>: [F3A-Discussion] snaps </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Given the abundance of snap maneuvers(7 maneuvers, 9 snaps)
in the F-11 pattern, I feel compelled to give the exact description via the F3A
rulebook:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>A snap-roll is a rapid autorotative roll where the model
aircraft is in a stalled attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Snap rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as
far as start and stop of the rotation, and constant flight path through the
manoeuvre is concerned.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show
a definite break and separation from the flight path, before the rotation is
started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be I a stalled condition
throughout the maneuver. If the stall/break does not occur and the model
aircraft barrel-rolls around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded(more
than 5 points). Similarly, axial rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be
severely downgraded(more than 5 points)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the
same criteria apply. The attitude(positive or negative) is at the
competitors discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled
condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using the
1 point/15 degree rule. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div id="AOLMsgPart_4_2b2915a2-627e-40ff-95e8-6b80b9711a81"><pre
style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><span style='color:blue'>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></a> <a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank"><span
style='color:blue'>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</span></a> </span></tt><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></pre></div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
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<p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>
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NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
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