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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I agree. Based on that thinking, Lance van
Nostrand has tried to bring into the rule book, that which is actually
happening with the airplane, and making it into a rule. Good
idea.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I have spent a lot of hours watching "snap rolls"
in slow motion, (actually, various speeds of slowed real-time flying) and what I
have seen is totally enlightening. It was obvious that what Jerry Budd
(reinforced by Ron van Putte) </FONT> <FONT size=2 face=Arial>said, was
absolutely true. I didn't see a single "snap roll" that satisfied the rule
book as being legal; every one of them would merit a zero, because of lack of
one or more elements, if you took the rule book verbatim.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I also found that much of the"coning" that we look
for, is, in MANY cases, an optical illusion caused by very careful choice of
paint configuration. On first glance, it appears that coning takes
place. By slow motion, it shows that there is very little
coning; in many cases, no actual coning. However, playing the maneuver in
real-time, it appears that coning is occurring.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The above is just what I've observed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bill Glaze</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">Vicente
"Vince" Bortone</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, July 06, 2010 10:35
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
[F3A-Discussion] snaps</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN>
<P><SPAN id=09e5ad40-9323-4de9-937a-60dca182242e>Bill,</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN>Base on my experience that is very easy to judge. Let's called
when you go from "flick roll" or "autorotacion" condition to pure roll
rotation. Let's forget about stalled or unstalled
terms. Looks like those terms need to be erased from the snap
description. </SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN>We still have the break in pitch requirement before the
snap that this is the one that is difficult to judge and perform.
If the pilot try to do it will loose more points than just to the "flick roll"
because in general most of us are not downgrading this element of
the snap roll. </SPAN><BR><BR>Vicente "Vince"
Bortone<BR></SPAN><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Bill Glaze"
<billglaze@bellsouth.net><BR>To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2010
7:30:57 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<BR><BR>
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</P>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>How can it return to an unstalled condition, when
it was never stalled (per Jerry Budd) in the first palce?</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=drmikedds@sbcglobal.net href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net"
target=_blank>Dr Mike</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>'General
pattern discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 05, 2010 8:04
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
[F3A-Discussion] snaps</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Yes
that is correct, thanks Matt.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Mike
</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B><A
href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com"
target=_blank>rcmaster199@aol.com</A><BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, July 04, 2010
6:22 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>; <A
href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us"
target=_blank>f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The
F3A maneuver description may be inadequate and/or inaccurate,
however that doesn't much matter for the judge who has the ardeous task
of deciphering the snap. The description stands as is for this cycle and
that's how the World's judges will judge them to the best of their ability
next year. I urge all judges that judge F3A Semis and Finals at this year's
Nats/Team Selection contest to take heed of FAI description (not AMA)
and judge accordingly.</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">In
essence, Snaps should not zeroe'd as easily as they once were; far cry
from where it was just a couple years ago. I believe that's the main
reason the rule was written as indicated. </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mike's
point I think deals with bringing the Snap back out of hibernation such that
folks get a chance to re-read it and re-hash just in time for the Team
Selection; fresh in one's mind so to speak</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Matt
K</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Woodward, Jim R (US SSA)
<jim.woodward@baesystems.com><BR>To: 'f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us'
<f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us>; 'nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org'
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Sun, Jul 4, 2010 4:27
pm<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</P>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_2b2915a2-627e-40ff-95e8-6b80b9711a81>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mike,
I'm replying from a blackberry without the benefit of the rulebook in front
of me. I thought these were called "Flick Rolls" now? I don't think any of
us are equipped in the context of judging a 0.5 second manuever to determine
if is "stalled" or "unstalled." I think Jerry Budd posted on the nsrca list
the last dissertation on snaps, which from memory, pretty much proved the
planes are not stalled.<BR><BR>Given you posted this, what do you want to
see happen? Thx Jim W.</SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">: <A
href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us" target=_blank><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</SPAN></U></A>
<<A href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us"
target=_blank><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</SPAN></U></A>>
<BR><B>To</B>: 'General pattern discussion' <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></U></A>>; <A
href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us" target=_blank><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</SPAN></U></A> <<A
href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us" target=_blank><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</SPAN></U></A>>
<BR><B>Sent</B>: Sun Jul 04 17:11:46 2010<BR><B>Subject</B>:
[F3A-Discussion] snaps </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Given the abundance of snap maneuvers(7 maneuvers, 9
snaps) in the F-11 pattern, I feel compelled to give the exact description
via the F3A rulebook:</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>A snap-roll is a rapid autorotative roll where the model
aircraft is in a stalled attitude, with a continuous high angle of
attack.</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Snap rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls
as far as start and stop of the rotation, and constant flight path through
the manoeuvre is concerned.</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must
show a definite break and separation from the flight path, before the
rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be I a stalled
condition throughout the maneuver. If the stall/break does not occur
and the model aircraft barrel-rolls around, the manoeuvre must be severely
downgraded(more than 5 points). Similarly, axial rolls disguised as
snap-rolls must be severely downgraded(more than 5 points)</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and
the same criteria apply. The attitude(positive or negative) is at the
competitors discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled
condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using
the 1 point/15 degree rule. </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_4_2b2915a2-627e-40ff-95e8-6b80b9711a81><PRE style="BACKGROUND: white"><TT><SPAN style="COLOR: black">_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank><U><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></U></A> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank><U><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</SPAN></U></A> </SPAN></TT><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></PRE></DIV></DIV>
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