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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“….break and separation from
the flight path…..”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>and<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“…….constant flight path
through the manoeuvre……”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Seems to me that the definition is
contradictory. A break could occur in the sense that there is a deviation
between attitude and track, but “separation from the flight path”
and “constant flight path” are contradictory. I would hope it
is clear enough that snaps absent of both pitch and yaw must be downgraded.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I would point out that a snap that
finishes on the same heading, but shows a minor line displacement has very
little effect on the geometry of the maneuver. Looking at a straight line
of 400’……a snap in the middle of the line would have to
displace 50 feet (8 wingspans) vertically or horizontally to change the line
(from start to finish) by 15 degrees (1 point). I see no other guidance
in the rulebook applicable to how a line displacement should be downgraded.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Dr Mike<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, July 05, 2010 11:28
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
[F3A-Discussion] snaps</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Good point, thanks <st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Troy</st1:place></st1:City>.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Troy Newman<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, July 05, 2010 10:06
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
[F3A-Discussion] snaps<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Ken,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>It still has to stay on flight path<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>“Snap rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far
as start and stop of the rotation, and <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>constant
flight</span></b> path through the manoeuvre is concerned.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>As Matt suggested this is not a discussion on we think it should be,
rather it is how the rule is written<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Troy</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Ken Thompson<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, July 05, 2010 7:13
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
[F3A-Discussion] snaps<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Glad for that description...the way I originally understood
it the plane was not supposed to deviate from the flight path...always said
that was impossible...</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Ken</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net" title="drmikedds@sbcglobal.net">Dr Mike</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday, July 05,
2010 7:04 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Yes that is correct,
thanks Matt.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Mike <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b><a href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:22
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>;
<a href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
[F3A-Discussion] snaps<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>The F3A maneuver description may be
inadequate and/or inaccurate, however that doesn't much matter for the
judge who has the ardeous task of deciphering the snap. The description stands
as is for this cycle and that's how the World's judges will judge them to the
best of their ability next year. I urge all judges that judge F3A Semis and
Finals at this year's Nats/Team Selection contest to take heed of FAI
description (not AMA) and judge accordingly.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>In essence, Snaps should not zeroe'd
as easily as they once were; far cry from where it was just a couple years
ago. I believe that's the main reason the rule was written as indicated. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Mike's point I think deals with bringing
the Snap back out of hibernation such that folks get a chance to re-read it and
re-hash just in time for the Team Selection; fresh in one's mind so to speak<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Matt K<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Woodward, Jim R (US SSA) <jim.woodward@baesystems.com><br>
To: 'f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us' <f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us>;
'nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org' <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Sun, Jul 4, 2010 4:27 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_2b2915a2-627e-40ff-95e8-6b80b9711a81">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Mike, I'm replying from a blackberry
without the benefit of the rulebook in front of me. I thought these were called
"Flick Rolls" now? I don't think any of us are equipped in the
context of judging a 0.5 second manuever to determine if is "stalled"
or "unstalled." I think Jerry Budd posted on the nsrca list the last
dissertation on snaps, which from memory, pretty much proved the planes are not
stalled.<br>
<br>
Given you posted this, what do you want to see happen? Thx Jim W.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>: <a
href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us"><font color=blue><span
style='color:blue'>f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</span></font></a> <<a
href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us"><font color=blue><span
style='color:blue'>f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</span></font></a>> <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To</span></b>: 'General pattern discussion'
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><font color=blue><span
style='color:blue'>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></font></a>>; <a
href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><font color=blue><span
style='color:blue'>f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</span></font></a> <<a
href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><font color=blue><span
style='color:blue'>f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</span></font></a>> <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent</span></b>: Sun Jul 04 17:11:46 2010<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject</span></b>: [F3A-Discussion] snaps </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Given the abundance of snap maneuvers(7 maneuvers, 9 snaps) in the F-11
pattern, I feel compelled to give the exact description via the F3A rulebook:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>A snap-roll is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in
a stalled attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Snap rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as
start and stop of the rotation, and constant flight path through the manoeuvre
is concerned.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite
break and separation from the flight path, before the rotation is started,
since the model aircraft is supposed to be I a stalled condition throughout the
maneuver. If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft
barrel-rolls around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded(more than 5
points). Similarly, axial rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely
downgraded(more than 5 points)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same
criteria apply. The attitude(positive or negative) is at the competitors
discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled condition
during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using the 1 point/15
degree rule. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div id="AOLMsgPart_4_2b2915a2-627e-40ff-95e8-6b80b9711a81"><pre
style='background:white'><tt><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a
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style='color:blue'>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></font></a> <a
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color=blue><span style='color:blue'>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</span></font></a> </span></font></tt><font
size=1 color=black><span style='font-size:9.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>
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