<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT color=black face=arial></FONT><SPAN style="DISPLAY: inline-block" contentEditable=false></SPAN>I offer the following to hopefully initiate discussion:</div>
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<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Plane shows an abrupt, definite pitch change and abrupt departure from flight path, followed immediately by:</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Rotation in Roll, and Yaw. </div>
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<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Forget about whether the Yaw happened before the Roll or not...it's nearly impossible to determine from a practical point of view. Pitch change is much simpler to determine. Not that it doesn't matter; it matters that Yaw and Roll are done serially BUT happen so quickly for autorotation to occur in a pattern plane, they are practically superimposed commands. That's for pattern planes only</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I urge you to forget about whether the plane is stalled or not...it doesn't matter from a practical point of view. If you want the rule changed such that better verbiage is crafted, go for it and make a proposal to the FAI.</div>
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<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">If the model does not show the abrupt pitch change and departure, the snap should be downgraded. That should be straight forward for snaps in straight lines. Much more difficult to discern a pitch change in a curved line such as in Avalanches. This is where it becomes much more of a judgement call. Folks, that is why you are in the chair, to make the judgement call. </div>
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<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Consider this: if the pilot desides halfway through the snap to simply roll it to exit, then severely downgrade it. I think you would be able to tell if this happens</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">If it shows a departure in Yaw and/or Roll first, before it shows the change in pitch, it should be downgraded. </div>
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<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">If the exit is missed in Roll axis, apply 1 pt per 15 degrees rule. If the exit is missed in Yaw axis, apply the 1/15 rule. If the plane does not follow the same angle of line, entry to exit, apply 1/15 rule. Pay extra attention on exit to see if the model was commanded in pitch to achieve the same angle. If you see a pitch change to correct the line, downgrade. Try not to confuse line departure or displacement here with a visible correction in pitch. If the plane departed from the line to initiate the snap, the new, displaced line must be maintained.</div>
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<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Let the comments roll</div>
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<div style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">MattK</div>
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-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Ken Thompson <kthompson56@satx.rr.com><br>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Mon, Jul 5, 2010 9:13 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<br>
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<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Glad for that description...the way I originally understood it the plane was not supposed to deviate from the flight path...always said that was impossible...</FONT></div>
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<div><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Ken</FONT></div>
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<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=drmikedds@sbcglobal.net href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net">Dr Mike</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 05, 2010 7:04 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Yes that is correct, thanks Matt.</SPAN></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Mike </SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of </B><A href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A><br>
<B>Sent:</B> Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:22 PM<br>
<B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>; <A href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</A><br>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The F3A maneuver description may be inadequate and/or inaccurate, however that doesn't much matter for the judge who has the ardeous task of deciphering the snap. The description stands as is for this cycle and that's how the World's judges will judge them to the best of their ability next year. I urge all judges that judge F3A Semis and Finals at this year's Nats/Team Selection contest to take heed of FAI description (not AMA) and judge accordingly.</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">In essence, Snaps should not zeroe'd as easily as they once were; far cry from where it was just a couple years ago. I believe that's the main reason the rule was written as indicated. </SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mike's point I think deals with bringing the Snap back out of hibernation such that folks get a chance to re-read it and re-hash just in time for the Team Selection; fresh in one's mind so to speak</SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Matt K</SPAN></div>
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<div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Woodward, Jim R (US SSA) <<A href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</A>><br>
To: '<A href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</A>' <<A href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</A>>; '<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>' <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><br>
Sent: Sun, Jul 4, 2010 4:27 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mike, I'm replying from a blackberry without the benefit of the rulebook in front of me. I thought these were called "Flick Rolls" now? I don't think any of us are equipped in the context of judging a 0.5 second manuever to determine if is "stalled" or "unstalled." I think Jerry Budd posted on the nsrca list the last dissertation on snaps, which from memory, pretty much proved the planes are not stalled.<br>
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Given you posted this, what do you want to see happen? Thx Jim W.</SPAN></div>
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<div style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">: <A href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us"><U><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</SPAN></U></A> <<A href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us"><U><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</SPAN></U></A>> <br>
<B>To</B>: 'General pattern discussion' <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><U><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></U></A>>; <A href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><U><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</SPAN></U></A> <<A href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><U><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</SPAN></U></A>> <br>
<B>Sent</B>: Sun Jul 04 17:11:46 2010<br>
<B>Subject</B>: [F3A-Discussion] snaps </SPAN></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal>Given the abundance of snap maneuvers(7 maneuvers, 9 snaps) in the F-11 pattern, I feel compelled to give the exact description via the F3A rulebook:</div>
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<div class=MsoNormal>A snap-roll is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack.</div>
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<div class=MsoNormal>Snap rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.</div>
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<div class=MsoNormal>At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be I a stalled condition throughout the maneuver. If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft barrel-rolls around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded(more than 5 points). Similarly, axial rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded(more than 5 points)</div>
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<div class=MsoNormal>Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. The attitude(positive or negative) is at the competitors discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree rule. </div>
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<div id=AOLMsgPart_4_2b2915a2-627e-40ff-95e8-6b80b9711a81><PRE style="BACKGROUND: white"><TT><SPAN style="COLOR: black">_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><U><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></U></A> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank><U><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</SPAN></U></A> </SPAN></TT><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN></PRE></div>
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