<html>
<body>
<font size=3>I don't know where you guys shop, but here in Oak Ridge, TN,
mine only cost $.089, plus TN sales tax and three Kellog's box
tops. For an extra dime, I got a secret decoder ring,
too...<br><br>
At 04:19 PM 7/5/2010, you wrote:<br>
</font><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=3 color="#000080">Dave,<br>
</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=3 color="#000080">Mine only
cost 10 million... I negotiated ;)<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
Regards,<br>
Jason<br>
<a href="http://www.jshulman.weebly.com/">www.jshulman.weebly.com/</a><br>
</font>
<dl>
<dd>----- Original Message ----- <br>
<dd>From:</b> <a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">Dave</a> <br>
<dd>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General
pattern discussion'</a> <br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 4:12 PM<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<br><br>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2 color="#000080">Ken,<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>In theory…..<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>IF the rotation in pitch is rapid enough, the wing can be forced to
stall before the plane measurably departs from the flight path…….and then
the rudder is applied to control the direction of the snap……..which
produces biased lift causing rotation in roll axis (even a stalled wing
produces some lift). Most of our pattern models do not snap well
without aileron (which further biases the lift).<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>I think most of us read the post on the NSRCA list by Jerry Budd
which concluded the typical modern pattern plane is not capable of snaps
as described in the rules…….however……the rules are what they are…..and
making a maneuver look as the rules describe is what the event is
about.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Completely different discussion point –<br>
<dd>A judge observes a square loop with 4 equal length sides, 4 equal
radii corners, and no deviations in distance from the flightline.
Judge scores a 10. In actuality, a $14 million GPS system shows the
square had 4 different radii, and was wider than tall. Nothing
changes…..the judge saw a 10 per the rulebook……and that is all that
matters. The pilots that perform maneuvers that appear to be error
free as described by the book should get a 10…..whether the maneuver is
actually correct is another matter.<br><br>
<dd>Regards,<br><br>
<dd>Dave<br>
<dd> <br>
<hr>
<div align="center"></font></div>
<dd><font face="Tahoma" size=2>From:</b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of </b>Ken
Thompson<br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 3:57 PM<br>
<dd>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>Dave et all,<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>I am having a bit of trouble
understanding how a plane in forward motion can with 100% certainty
rotate on it's CG...when the tail drops or raises, depending on Pos or
Neg snap, the nose goes the opposite direction. I just don't see how you
can stop the CG from moving at all, even the slightest bit would be a
downgrade.<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>What I think would be very cool
is. we get a vid of what we all would consider as perfect a snap as we've
ever seen and generate a line as an overlay to represent the
track...extend that line forward of the planes position, then we will be
able to see if there is an actual deviation of flight track or
path...<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>I think I'm living in a dream
world...LOL!<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>Ken<br>
<dl>
<dd>----- Original Message ----- <br>
<dd>From:</b> <a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">Dave</a> <br>
<dd>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General
pattern discussion'</a> <br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 1:47 PM<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2 color="#000080">“….break and
separation from the flight path…..”<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>and<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>“…….constant flight path through the manoeuvre……”<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Seems to me that the definition is contradictory. A break could
occur in the sense that there is a deviation between attitude and track,
but “separation from the flight path” and “constant flight path” are
contradictory. I would hope it is clear enough that snaps absent of
both pitch and yaw must be downgraded.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>I would point out that a snap that finishes on the same heading, but
shows a minor line displacement has very little effect on the geometry of
the maneuver. Looking at a straight line of 400’……a snap in the
middle of the line would have to displace 50 feet (8 wingspans)
vertically or horizontally to change the line (from start to finish) by
15 degrees (1 point). I see no other guidance in the rulebook
applicable to how a line displacement should be downgraded.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Regards,<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Dave<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br>
<hr>
<div align="center"></font></div>
<dd><font face="Tahoma" size=2>From:</b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of </b>Dr
Mike<br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 11:28 AM<br>
<dd>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Calibri" size=2 color="#1F497D">Good point, thanks
Troy.<br>
<dd> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Tahoma" size=2>From:</b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of
</b>Troy Newman<br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 10:06 AM<br>
<dd>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>Ken,<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>It still has to stay on flight path<br>
<dd> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3>“Snap rolls have the same
judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation,
and constant flight</b> path through the manoeuvre is concerned.”<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>As Matt suggested this is not a discussion on we think it should
be, rather it is how the rule is written<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Troy<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2> <br>
<dd> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Tahoma" size=2>From:</b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of </b>Ken
Thompson<br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 7:13 AM<br>
<dd>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>Glad for that description...the
way I originally understood it the plane was not supposed to deviate from
the flight path...always said that was impossible...<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>Ken<br>
<dl>
<dd>----- Original Message ----- <br>
<dd>From:</b> <a href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net">Dr Mike</a> <br>
<dd>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General
pattern discussion'</a> <br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 7:04 AM<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Calibri" size=2 color="#1F497D">Yes that is correct,
thanks Matt.<br>
<dd>Mike <br>
<dd> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Tahoma" size=2>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of
</b><a href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</a><br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:22 PM<br>
<dd>To:</b>
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>;
<a href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us">
f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</a><br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>The F3A maneuver description may
be inadequate and/or inaccurate, however that doesn't much matter for the
judge who has the ardeous task of deciphering the snap. The description
stands as is for this cycle and that's how the World's judges will judge
them to the best of their ability next year. I urge all judges that judge
F3A Semis and Finals at this year's Nats/Team Selection contest to take
heed of FAI description (not AMA) and judge accordingly.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>In essence, Snaps should not zeroe'd as easily as they once were; far
cry from where it was just a couple years ago. I believe that's the main
reason the rule was written as indicated. <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Mike's point I think deals with bringing the Snap back out of
hibernation such that folks get a chance to re-read it and re-hash just
in time for the Team Selection; fresh in one's mind so to speak<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Matt K<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3> <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>-----Original Message-----<br>
<dd>From: Woodward, Jim R (US SSA)
<jim.woodward@baesystems.com><br>
<dd>To: 'f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us'
<f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us>; 'nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org'
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
<dd>Sent: Sun, Jul 4, 2010 4:27 pm<br>
<dd>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2 color="#000080">Mike, I'm
replying from a blackberry without the benefit of the rulebook in front
of me. I thought these were called "Flick Rolls" now? I don't
think any of us are equipped in the context of judging a 0.5 second
manuever to determine if is "stalled" or "unstalled."
I think Jerry Budd posted on the nsrca list the last dissertation on
snaps, which from memory, pretty much proved the planes are not
stalled.<br><br>
<dd>Given you posted this, what do you want to see happen? Thx Jim
W.<br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3> <br>
<hr>
<div align="center"></font></div>
<dd><font face="Tahoma" size=2>From</b>:
</font><a href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us">
<font face="Tahoma" size=2 color="#0000FF">
f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</a></font>
<<a href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us">
<font face="Tahoma" size=2 color="#0000FF">
f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</a></font>> <br>
<dd>To</b>: 'General pattern discussion'
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
<font face="Tahoma" size=2 color="#0000FF">
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></font>>;
<a href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us">
<font face="Tahoma" size=2 color="#0000FF">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</a>
</font>
<<a href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us">
<font face="Tahoma" size=2 color="#0000FF">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</a>
</font>> <br>
<dd>Sent</b>: Sun Jul 04 17:11:46 2010<br>
<dd>Subject</b>: [F3A-Discussion] snaps <br>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3>Given the abundance of
snap maneuvers(7 maneuvers, 9 snaps) in the F-11 pattern, I feel
compelled to give the exact description via the F3A rulebook:<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>A snap-roll is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is
in a stalled attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Snap rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as
start and stop of the rotation, and constant flight path through the
manoeuvre is concerned.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a
definite break and separation from the flight path, before the rotation
is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be I a stalled
condition throughout the maneuver. If the stall/break does not
occur and the model aircraft barrel-rolls around, the manoeuvre must be
severely downgraded(more than 5 points). Similarly, axial rolls
disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded(more than 5
points)<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same
criteria apply. The attitude(positive or negative) is at the
competitors discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an
unstalled condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely
downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree rule. <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br>
</font><br>
<dd><tt><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>
_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing
list
</font><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
<font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2 color="#0000FF">
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></font>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" eudora="autourl">
<font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2 color="#0000FF">
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></font>
</tt><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=3><br>
<hr>
<div align="center"></font></div>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3>
_______________________________________________<br>
<dd>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<dd>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<dd>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" eudora="autourl">
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
</font><br>
</dl><hr>
<div align="center"></div>
<dd><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3>
_______________________________________________<br>
<dd>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<dd>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<dd>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" eudora="autourl">
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
</font><br>
</dl><hr>
<dd>_______________________________________________<br>
<dd>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<dd>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<dd>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" eudora="autourl">
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br><br>
</dl>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" eudora="autourl">
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<b><i>--><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=3 color="#800000">There
are only two types of aircraft -- fighters and targets.<br><br>
</i></b></font><font size=3>Phil Spelt, Past President, Knox County Radio
Control Society, Inc.<br>
URL:
<a href="http://www.kcrctn.com/" eudora="autourl">
http://www.kcrctn.com<br>
</a>AMA--1294, Scientific Leader Member SPA--177, Board
Member<br>
My URL:
<a href="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/~chuenkan/" eudora="autourl">
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/~chuenkan/<br>
</a> (865) 435-1476 v (865) 604-0541
c </font></body>
</html>