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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I would tend to agree with Dave since a “coning effect occurs in
the snap”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>mike<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Vicente
"Vince" Bortone<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 2:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>In this sentence
"I would hope it is clear enough that snaps absent of both pitch and yaw
must be downgraded" I think should be pitch only. Yaw
should be downgraded when reading the FAI description of snap roll. I
will agree that is extremely difficult to see the yaw before or during the
pitch brake. Also, I know that it is very difficult to do a pure pitch break.
Probably this is the reason that all maneuvers with snaps have the highest K
factor.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Dave" <DaveL322@comcast.net><br>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Monday, July 5, 2010 1:47:46 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>“….break and separation from the flight path…..”</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>and</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>“…….constant flight path through the manoeuvre……”</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Seems to me that the definition is contradictory. A break
could occur in the sense that there is a deviation between attitude and track,
but “separation from the flight path” and “constant flight path” are
contradictory. I would hope it is clear enough that snaps absent of both
pitch and yaw must be downgraded.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I would point out that a snap that finishes on the same heading,
but shows a minor line displacement has very little effect on the geometry of
the maneuver. Looking at a straight line of 400’……a snap in the middle of
the line would have to displace 50 feet (8 wingspans) vertically or
horizontally to change the line (from start to finish) by 15 degrees (1
point). I see no other guidance in the rulebook applicable to how a line
displacement should be downgraded.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Regards,</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Dave</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dr Mike<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 11:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Good point, thanks Troy.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Troy
Newman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 10:06 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Ken,</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>It still has to stay on flight path</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>“Snap rolls have the same judging
criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and <b>constant
flight</b> path through the manoeuvre is concerned.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>As Matt suggested this is not a
discussion on we think it should be, rather it is how the rule is written<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Troy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ken
Thompson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 05, 2010 7:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Glad for that description...the way I originally understood it the
plane was not supposed to deviate from the flight path...always said that was
impossible...</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Ken</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>----- Original Message ----- </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <a
href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank"
title="drmikedds@sbcglobal.net">Dr Mike</a> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</a> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> Monday, July 05, 2010 7:04 AM</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Yes that is correct, thanks Matt.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Mike </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a
href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com" target="_blank">rcmaster199@aol.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>;
<a href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us" target="_blank">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>The F3A maneuver description may be inadequate and/or inaccurate,
however that doesn't much matter for the judge who has the ardeous task of
deciphering the snap. The description stands as is for this cycle and that's
how the World's judges will judge them to the best of their ability next year.
I urge all judges that judge F3A Semis and Finals at this year's Nats/Team
Selection contest to take heed of FAI description (not AMA) and judge
accordingly.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>In essence, Snaps should not zeroe'd as easily as they once
were; far cry from where it was just a couple years ago. I believe that's
the main reason the rule was written as indicated. </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mike's point I think deals with bringing the Snap back out of
hibernation such that folks get a chance to re-read it and re-hash just in time
for the Team Selection; fresh in one's mind so to speak</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Matt K</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Woodward, Jim R (US SSA) <jim.woodward@baesystems.com><br>
To: 'f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us' <f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us>;
'nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org' <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Sun, Jul 4, 2010 4:27 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_2b2915a2-627e-40ff-95e8-6b80b9711a81">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Mike, I'm replying from a blackberry without the benefit of the
rulebook in front of me. I thought these were called "Flick Rolls"
now? I don't think any of us are equipped in the context of judging a 0.5
second manuever to determine if is "stalled" or
"unstalled." I think Jerry Budd posted on the nsrca list the last
dissertation on snaps, which from memory, pretty much proved the planes are not
stalled.<br>
<br>
Given you posted this, what do you want to see happen? Thx Jim W.</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>: <a
href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us" target="_blank"><span
style='color:blue'>f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</span></a> <<a
href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us" target="_blank"><span
style='color:blue'>f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</span></a>> <br>
<b>To</b>: 'General pattern discussion' <<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank"><span
style='color:blue'>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></a>>; <a
href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us" target="_blank"><span
style='color:blue'>f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</span></a> <<a
href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us" target="_blank"><span
style='color:blue'>f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</span></a>> <br>
<b>Sent</b>: Sun Jul 04 17:11:46 2010<br>
<b>Subject</b>: [F3A-Discussion] snaps </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Given the abundance of snap
maneuvers(7 maneuvers, 9 snaps) in the F-11 pattern, I feel compelled to give
the exact description via the F3A rulebook:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>A snap-roll is a rapid
autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled attitude, with a
continuous high angle of attack.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Snap rolls have the same judging
criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and constant
flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>At the start of a snap-roll, the
fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight
path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to
be I a stalled condition throughout the maneuver. If the stall/break does
not occur and the model aircraft barrel-rolls around, the manoeuvre must be
severely downgraded(more than 5 points). Similarly, axial rolls disguised
as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded(more than 5 points)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Snap-rolls can be flown both
positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. The attitude(positive
or negative) is at the competitors discretion. If the model aircraft
returns to an unstalled condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is
severely downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree rule. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_4_2b2915a2-627e-40ff-95e8-6b80b9711a81"><pre
style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a
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style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></pre></div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
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