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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The holy grail of absolute consistency – is false<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Maybe. I’m not good enough to notice<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The holy grail of motor system security – is false -
must still carry extra motor, ESC, Battery<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>True, I did have one dead stick in my last 834 flights.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Weather effects are at least equal compared to glow –
temps, humidity, wind, effect mah usage<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Maybe…but I haven’t tweaked anything in three years
(other than play with esc settings)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>4.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>11 lbs weight limit is significantly more difficult to meet with
electric plane than glow<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Maybe, but not with the right equipment (both my planes are at
10lbs rtf without any difficulty.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>5.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>E-deadsticks or low-power runs still occur<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Yes, 0.12% of the time in my case<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>6.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Must have field charging solution – most likely Honda
generator<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Yes, but I used my generator to run the TV during power outages more
than I did charging batteries last summer! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>7.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Must have temp-control measures in place for batteries (hot dashboard
or warm blanket?)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I haven’t seen a need for this and I’ll fly down to
45 degrees.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>8.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Can have an “E-crash” while flying – ESC or
battery starts smoking/fire<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Knock on wood…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>9.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Battery safety ???<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Common sense (I hope that statement doesn’t bite me!)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>10.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Reduced flight time - All this ruminating and crazyness for 8-9
minutes of flight time??<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Focused flights, no time to screw around.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Best part of all this craziness for me…flying at 6:00am before
work!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Woodward,
Jim R (US SSA)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:22 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts - fresh comparison?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bingo – “Dave quote, </span><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>The “biggest
lie” about electrics is that they always produce the same amount of
power. Phooey. Ambient temperature has a big influence.</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Truths about electric – from a glow flyer’s
perspective:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>11.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The holy grail of absolute consistency – is false<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>12.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The holy grail of motor system security – is false -
must still carry extra motor, ESC, Battery<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>13.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Weather effects are at least equal compared to glow –
temps, humidity, wind, effect mah usage<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>14.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>11 lbs weight limit is significantly more difficult to meet with
electric plane than glow<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>15.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>E-deadsticks or low-power runs still occur<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>16.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Must have field charging solution – most likely Honda
generator<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>17.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Must have temp-control measures in place for batteries (hot dashboard
or warm blanket?)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>18.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Can have an “E-crash” while flying – ESC or
battery starts smoking/fire<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>19.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Battery safety ???<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>20.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Reduced flight time - All this ruminating and crazyness for 8-9
minutes of flight time??<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>From my perspective, the only reason to fly electric would be if
the industry and judging trends were so badly biased towards electric, that it
became the only “competitive” solution available. I’m
leaving the “sponsorship” component out of the equation, because people
on the E or G side of the discussion have sponsorships either way. It
just seems like a large pain in the arse to fly electric, given the reduced
flight times and severe penalty on battery life if you fly too long. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Given all this, what is the E-flyer really getting?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Jim W.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>rcmaster199@aol.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 03, 2010 11:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Ed,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>I'm not so sure. Most IC's don't have a pressure regulator...the
YS is about the only one. This a passive device that has fixed settings.
Dave's example of the EFI may be a dfferent story though...I never spent any
time dealing with the OS EFI so I don't know how it worked. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>The problem with such analogies is that gas and glow fuels have a
fixed amount of pop per unit mass. Put in X amount and you will pretty much get
Y out for any given set-up, even poor ones. Y would vary of course depending on
how good the set-up was, meaning different operators will probably get
different Y's. However Y would be pretty much fixed for each operator<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Batteries on the other hand, have a continuously variable amount
of pop per unit mass. Electronically taking the variable input volts and,
through some apparently straight forward software, drive a constant Y
at the motor, is where I am having some issue with. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>As for ESC's not doing much to alter the piloting of the
model, again I am not so sure. Dean used a good example: at near the end of the
flight, let's assume there is a diagonal or vertical. The battery has lost some
pop and the motor won't be able to keep up under constant
throttle conditions. The pilot would need to make a throttle adjustment to
maintain momentum. If the ESC had this new programming, the pilot would fly
through this without hardly noticing or changing his flying, just like we do
with ICs. I certainly am NOT opposed to reducing pilot work load...it's the how
not the what. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>And in this particular instance, equality between the types of
propulsion IS what the programmable ESC proponents
want.....<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>The rule as written is sticky. I think that some type of
clarification or addendum to the rule, as Earl suggested, would eliminate the
sticky wicket if you will.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>BTW- I am not implying that Dean is against the programmable ESC,
far from it. He has thought through what would be needed to accomplish the
task. In fact, he did something similar to Bob Hunt's WC stunt entry a few
years ago. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Matt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Ed Alt <ed_alt@hotmail.com><br>
To: NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Wed, Mar 3, 2010 7:56 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_4579dbb9-5b7a-4104-a56f-1be504f49d00">
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>I actually was only halfway joking I said "Ban the YS
Pressure Regulator", or something like that. Not that I
really think it should be banned, but for everyone who thinks it would be
cheating to have an ESC that can auto-compensate for dwindling battery voltage,
then you ought to seriously think about why it is OK to have a automatic
pressure regulator in a recip. There isn't much difference, other
than one is wet and the other is dry. And the other key point about having
an ESC with this feature is that it doesn't do anything to alter the piloting
of the model based on the external conditions that the model is encountering.
All it is doing is de-rating the output of the the battery to make it
consistent throughout its useful operation range. <br>
<br>
Ed<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>To: <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 13:58:30 -0500<br>
From: <a href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Dave,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>I would argue that the ESC has the sensor built. It isn't a sensor
in the sense of a mag pick up such as CDI devices have. It is rather an exact
frequency determination to which the motor is driven. It is simpler and hidden.
Should we go back on mechanical advance....God no./<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>I think the CDI electronic advance is similar to today's digital
servo. The former advances spark pulsing based on rpm and the latter advances
motor output torque based on input load. Whether each violates, not sure. Needs
more thought and comparison to the rules. My first take would be to say NO
because the magnitude of adjustment is fixed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Matt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div id="ecxAOLMsgPart_3_206fcde7-b541-45f1-8411-1b649ce37e0a">
<div>
<div id="ecxAOLMsgPart_3_7847c14c-30b6-46fd-8ac5-d9082bf408bf">
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:4.2pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <a
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" title="DaveL322@comcast.net">Dave</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> Wednesday, March 03, 2010 9:47 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Matt,</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:navy'>One more thought/consideration/question –</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Is electronic ignition with variable timing advance illegal?
Essentially the RPM is sensed (through a sensor), and as RPM increases,
the timing is advanced. The ESCs of today do the same function…they
advance timing as RPM increases, but do so without sensor. Should we go
back to sensors and mechanical advance devices?</span><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Regards,</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Dave</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>On Mar 2, 2010, at 8:15 AM, <a href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</a>
wrote:</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>I had a brief conversation with Dean Pappas on this subject
recently. Dean explained that some folks have been advocates of programming the
ESC to do some footwork at various stages of battery use. He explained to me
just how easy this is to do physically. It seems a few have mentioned something
similar in this thread.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>I am not that concerned about raising the voltage of the battery
as I see this as a somewhat clear violation of the FAI code. I am more
concerned about what and how the ESC is "programmed" . I would like
for some one with the electronic/software pedigree to explain to me how
programming adjustable rates of voltage potential and making these adjustments
automatically, does not constitute a programming violation within the rules as
they exist today. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>When the rules were written, we were clearly dealing
with RADIO pre-programmed sequences and the like, no gyros, etc. However I
would argue that rate auto adjustments that are definitely possible with the
ESC's of today, also qualify as a violation of said rules. Someone should sit
down and think this through...I could be convinced otherwise but it needs to be
a good argument<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>MattK<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Anthony Romano <<a href="mailto:anthonyr105@hotmail.com">anthonyr105@hotmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Sent: Tue, Mar 2, 2010 8:29 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="ecxecxecxAOLMsgPart_3_a1464e77-3c63-4f8d-b134-28eaec9f2cea">
<div style='margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Keep this line of thinking in mind next time we talk about weight
limits! Or any other rules proposal.<br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:45:57 -0500<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> <br>
> OK, So I have a question. Is knowingly and purposefully violating the
intent<br>
> and letter of the rules to gain a performance advantage called cheating?<br>
> ....... Just asking!<br>
> Dave Burton<br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of James Oddino<br>
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 7:16 PM<br>
> To: General pattern discussion<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> <br>
> I have the functional concept that solves the rules problem. Picture a 10S<br>
> pack positive lead wired to the common of a switch with two poles, a piece<br>
> of wire connected from one pole to a pole on a second two pole switch with<br>
> its common connected to the ESC. Between the other two poles we place our<br>
> 11th cell. When the 10S pack is above 37.5 volts the 11th cell is bypassed<br>
> and when it is below, like it will be during vertical maneuvers late in<br>
> flight, the 11th cell is put in series to boost the voltage to up to 41.7<br>
> volts. At no time is the voltage over the spec.<br>
> <br>
> Having said that, I believe the 10S system provides adequate power with
the<br>
> right motor at all times of flight even if the voltage drops to 35 volts.<br>
> <br>
> Jim<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:59 AM, Bob Kane wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > Going higher and regulating down would be against the rules, the max
volts<br>
> is still limited to 42.56. <br>
> > <br>
> > Bob Kane<br>
> > <a href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > --- On Mon, 3/1/10, krishlan fitzsimmons <<a
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> >> From: krishlan fitzsimmons <<a
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</a>><br>
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> >> To: <a href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</a>,
"General pattern discussion"<br>
> <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
> >> Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 9:54 AM<br>
> >> <br>
> >> Couldn't we go to a higher voltage and<br>
> >> regulate it back down? A contstant 42.56v would be nice!<br>
> >> <br>
> >> Chris <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> From: Chad<br>
> >> Northeast <<a href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</a>><br>
> >> To:<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >> Sent: Sun,<br>
> >> February 28, 2010 8:48:48 PM<br>
> >> Subject: Re:<br>
> >> [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> >> <br>
> >> You would be at about 50% capacity at 3.85 ish volts/cell<br>
> >> (resting open circuit), so unless you up the capacity you<br>
> >> will have a pretty restricted flight time.<br>
> >> <br>
> >> Chad<br>
> >> <br>
> >> On 10-02-28 9:25 PM, Ron Van Putte wrote:<br>
> >>> That stirs a wild thought in my brain. Fully<br>
> >> charged packs don't stay at 4.2 volts per cell very<br>
> >> long. On the other hand, once the initial charge<br>
> >> voltage is burned off by a constant load, the voltage loss<br>
> >> curve "flattens out". What if you put fully<br>
> >> charged 6S and a 5S packs in series and "burn them<br>
> >> down" to 3.869 volts per cell (a total of 42.56<br>
> >> volts for an 11-cell pack) so they were legal for<br>
> >> use. Would the voltage of this depleted 11S pack be<br>
> >> higher than a fully charged 10S pack at the end of a typical<br>
> >> flight? If the end-of-flight voltage might be<br>
> >> significantly higher for the 11S pack vice a 10S pack, it<br>
> >> would be worth investigating, even considering the extra<br>
> >> weight of the additional cell. Come on you electronic<br>
> >> gurus, show me where I'm wrong.<br>
> >>> <br>
> >>> Ron Van Putte<br>
> >>> <br>
> >>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 10:00 PM, James Oddino wrote:<br>
> >>> <br>
> >>>> What comes after ...? Does it specify a load<br>
> >> or any other conditions? Is it measured during the<br>
> >> noise test and have a minimum value?<br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> Just stirring the pot, Jim O<br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, John Fuqua wrote:<br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>>> No its not (assuming we are talking RC<br>
> >> Aerobatics). Try page RCA-2 para 4.1<br>
> >>>>> which<br>
> >> states "Electrically-powered model aircraft are<br>
> >> limited to a maximum<br>
> >>>>> of 42.56 volts.."<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
> >>>>> From: <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >>>>> [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<br>
> >> On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<br>
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 7:07 PM<br>
> >>>>> To: General pattern discussion<br>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> It's in the general rules, not in the R/C<br>
> >> section.<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Jim Quinn wrote:<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>>> Where can I find the rule<br>
> >> for max volts?<br>
> >>>>>> <br>
> >>>>>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >>>>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >>>>>> <br>
> >> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >>>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >>>>> <a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing<br>
> >> list<br>
> >>>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >>>>> <a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> _______________________________________________<br>
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href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >>> <br>
> >>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
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> >>> <a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
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> >> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br>
> >> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
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> >> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
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> > <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
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