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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2 face=Arial><FONT size=2 face=Arial><FONT
size=3>IC powered models improve in thrust to weight ratio as fuel is burned
off, the converse is true of E powered models - power declines as battery
charge (fuel) is used. </FONT></DIV></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dave's ESC requirements are exactly what is desirable.
"Giving up" some early flight "punch" to ensure constant performance throughout.
A lot different than having an ESC do some magic to extract more performance at
the latter stages of flight. In other words, the prop rpm would be proportional
to the (pilot controlled) stick position throughout a flight. Simply a more
direct relation between control input and result, not unlike an IC system. The
system now used is kinda "back-door" in that TX inputs are turned into a power
output from the ESC that varies with input voltage resulting in different motor
outputs for the same stick position.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>For the sake of argument, I suppose that if one
wants' to read things unintended into the rules ad nauseum,
then jettisoning fuel via the exhaust is reason for not scoring a
flight from the point where exhaust is seen leaving the model. >From the
rules: "</FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2 face=Arial><FONT size=2
face=Arial>If any part of the model aircraft is jettisoned during the flight,
scoring will cease at that point and the competitor must be instructed by the
flight line director to immediately land his model
aircraft."</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2 face=Arial><FONT size=2
face=Arial></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2 face=Arial><FONT size=2 face=Arial><FONT
size=3>Earl </FONT></DIV></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">Dave</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 03, 2010 11:48
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max
volts</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The OS EFI looked at
throttle position (taken from the throttle servo signal pulse width), RPM, and
temperature. I disconnected the temp sensor and found it made ZERO
difference in running characteristics under normal conditions. Others
reported the engine would not even start without the temp sensor connected.
My understanding is that EFI computer unit basically compared throttle
position to RPM and adjusted the mixture to reduce rich/lean spots as the
engine came on/off the pipe.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The “biggest lie”
about electrics is that they always produce the same amount of power.
Phooey. Ambient temperature has a big
influence.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">So far as the ESC
feature I would like to have…..it is not a governor like the governor mode
from the heli software or the governor mode Dean has worked with for CL Stunt.
And I certainly don’t want my electric setup to emulate an IC (if I did,
I’d just fly IC). What the feature is, is a way to “clip” peak power at
the beginning of the discharge cycle to maintain a constant peak power
(if/when requested by advancing the throttle stick to 100%) and constant part
throttle power. In the instance of a fresh battery being capable of 6500
RPM, it might be limited to 6100 RPM…..and ½ throttle would be 4500 RPM (for
instance). As the battery is discharged, it might only be capable of
6200 RPM, but full throttle would remain 6100 RPM, and ½ throttle would remain
4500 RPM. Think of it more as the way modern TX output strength is
controlled……….whether the TX battery is freshly charged at 11 volts (Nixx) or
near depleted at 9.3 volts…the signal output strength is the
same.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">So far as a 45 upline
or vertical upline……certainly electric or IC both need throttle adjustments to
maintain constant airspeed. A “governor” that maintains constant prop
RPM could be applied to either setup (and potentially maintain constant
airspeed without an input from the pilot). In practice, less throttle
adjustment is needed with an electric, because as the load on the electric
increases (airspeed decreases when climbing), the electric motor attempts to
maintain the RPM from the start of the climb (KV*volts) by drawing more amps
to maintain the RPM. IC doesn’t do this….more load on engine results in
a loss of RPM (absent any specific tuning effects of the exhaust system,
mixture, etc).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I think the intent of
the rules are clear enough, and need to be updated to reflect the current
technology.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of
</SPAN></B>rcmaster199@aol.com<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, March 03, 2010 11:48
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max
volts</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ed,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I'm not so sure.
Most IC's don't have a pressure regulator...the YS is about the only one. This
a passive device that has fixed settings. Dave's example of the EFI may
be a dfferent story though...I never spent any time dealing with the OS EFI so
I don't know how it worked. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The problem with
such analogies is that gas and glow fuels have a fixed amount of pop per unit
mass. Put in X amount and you will pretty much get Y out for any given set-up,
even poor ones. Y would vary of course depending on how good the set-up was,
meaning different operators will probably get different Y's. However Y would
be pretty much fixed for each operator<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Batteries on the
other hand, have a continuously variable amount of pop per unit mass.
Electronically taking the variable input volts and, through some apparently
straight forward software, drive a constant Y at the motor, is where
I am having some issue with. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">As for ESC's
not doing much to alter the piloting of the model, again I am not so sure.
Dean used a good example: at near the end of the flight, let's assume there is
a diagonal or vertical. The battery has lost some pop and the motor won't be
able to keep up under constant throttle conditions. The pilot would
need to make a throttle adjustment to maintain momentum. If the ESC had this
new programming, the pilot would fly through this without hardly noticing or
changing his flying, just like we do with ICs. I certainly am NOT opposed to
reducing pilot work load...it's the how not the what.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">And in this
particular instance, equality between the types of propulsion IS
what the programmable ESC proponents
want.....<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The rule as written
is sticky. I think that some type of clarification or addendum to the rule, as
Earl suggested, would eliminate the sticky wicket if you
will.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">BTW- I am not
implying that Dean is against the programmable ESC, far from it. He has
thought through what would be needed to accomplish the task. In fact, he did
something similar to Bob Hunt's WC stunt entry a few years ago.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Matt<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2
face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2
face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Ed Alt <ed_alt@hotmail.com><BR>To: NSRCA List
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Wed, Mar 3, 2010 7:56
pm<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_4579dbb9-5b7a-4104-a56f-1be504f49d00>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I actually was only
halfway joking I said "Ban the YS Pressure Regulator", or something like
that. Not that I really think it should be banned, but for everyone
who thinks it would be cheating to have an ESC that can auto-compensate for
dwindling battery voltage, then you ought to seriously think about why it
is OK to have a automatic pressure regulator in a recip. There
isn't much difference, other than one is wet and the other is dry.
And the other key point about having an ESC with this feature is that it
doesn't do anything to alter the piloting of the model based on the external
conditions that the model is encountering. All it is doing is de-rating the
output of the the battery to make it consistent throughout its
useful operation range.
<BR> <BR>Ed<BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><FONT color=black
size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR id=stopSpelling align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2
face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:
<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Date:
Wed, 3 Mar 2010 13:58:30 -0500<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A><BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dave,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I would argue that
the ESC has the sensor built. It isn't a sensor in the sense of a mag pick up
such as CDI devices have. It is rather an exact frequency determination to
which the motor is driven. It is simpler and hidden. Should we go back on
mechanical advance....God no./<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I think the CDI
electronic advance is similar to today's digital servo. The former advances
spark pulsing based on rpm and the latter advances motor output torque based
on input load. Whether each violates, not sure. Needs more thought and
comparison to the rules. My first take would be to say NO because the
magnitude of adjustment is fixed<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Matt<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV id=ecxAOLMsgPart_3_206fcde7-b541-45f1-8411-1b649ce37e0a>
<DIV>
<DIV id=ecxAOLMsgPart_3_7847c14c-30b6-46fd-8ac5-d9082bf408bf>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.2pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><FONT color=black size=2
face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=DaveL322@comcast.net href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">Dave</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Wednesday, March
03, 2010 9:47 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Matt,</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">One more
thought/consideration/question –</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black size=2
face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Is electronic
ignition with variable timing advance illegal? Essentially the RPM is
sensed (through a sensor), and as RPM increases, the timing is
advanced. The ESCs of today do the same function…they advance timing
as RPM increases, but do so without sensor. Should we go back to
sensors and mechanical advance devices?</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black
size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards,</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dave</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">On Mar 2, 2010,
at 8:15 AM, <A href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I had a brief
conversation with Dean Pappas on this subject recently. Dean explained
that some folks have been advocates of programming the ESC to do some
footwork at various stages of battery use. He explained to me just how
easy this is to do physically. It seems a few have mentioned something
similar in this thread.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I am not that
concerned about raising the voltage of the battery as I see this as a
somewhat clear violation of the FAI code. I am more concerned about
what and how the ESC is "programmed" . I would like for some one with the
electronic/software pedigree to explain to me how programming adjustable
rates of voltage potential and making these adjustments automatically,
does not constitute a programming violation within the rules as they exist
today. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">When the rules
were written, we were clearly dealing with RADIO pre-programmed
sequences and the like, no gyros, etc. However I would argue that rate
auto adjustments that are definitely possible with the ESC's of today,
also qualify as a violation of said rules. Someone should sit down and
think this through...I could be convinced otherwise but it needs to be a
good argument<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">MattK<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR><BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Anthony Romano <<A
href="mailto:anthonyr105@hotmail.com">anthonyr105@hotmail.com</A>><BR>To:
<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Sent:
Tue, Mar 2, 2010 8:29 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max
volts<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV id=ecxecxecxAOLMsgPart_3_a1464e77-3c63-4f8d-b134-28eaec9f2cea>
<DIV style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Keep this line
of thinking in mind next time we talk about weight limits! Or any other
rules proposal.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR> <BR>> From: <A
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</A><BR>> To: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:45:57 -0500<BR>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<BR>> <BR>> OK, So I have a question. Is
knowingly and purposefully violating the intent<BR>> and letter of the
rules to gain a performance advantage called cheating?<BR>> .......
Just asking!<BR>> Dave Burton<BR>> <BR>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>> From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of James Oddino<BR>> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 7:16
PM<BR>> To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern
discussion</st1:PersonName><BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max
volts<BR>> <BR>> I have the functional concept that solves the rules
problem. Picture a 10S<BR>> pack positive lead wired to the common of a
switch with two poles, a piece<BR>> of wire connected from one pole to
a pole on a second two pole switch with<BR>> its common connected to
the ESC. Between the other two poles we place our<BR>> 11th cell. When
the 10S pack is above 37.5 volts the 11th cell is bypassed<BR>> and
when it is below, like it will be during vertical maneuvers late
in<BR>> flight, the 11th cell is put in series to boost the voltage to
up to 41.7<BR>> volts. At no time is the voltage over the spec.<BR>>
<BR>> Having said that, I believe the 10S system provides adequate
power with the<BR>> right motor at all times of flight even if the
voltage drops to 35 volts.<BR>> <BR>> Jim<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:59 AM, Bob Kane wrote:<BR>> <BR>> > Going
higher and regulating down would be against the rules, the max
volts<BR>> is still limited to 42.56. <BR>> > <BR>> > Bob
Kane<BR>> > <A
href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>> >
<BR>> > <BR>> > --- On Mon, 3/1/10, krishlan fitzsimmons
<<A
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>
wrote:<BR>> > <BR>> >> From: krishlan fitzsimmons <<A
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<BR>> >> To: <A
href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</A>, "<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>"<BR>> <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>>
>> Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 9:54 AM<BR>> >> <BR>>
>> Couldn't we go to a higher voltage and<BR>> >> regulate
it back down? A contstant 42.56v would be nice!<BR>> >> <BR>>
>> Chris <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >>
<BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >>
<BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> From:
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Chad</st1:place></st1:country-region><BR>> >> Northeast
<<A href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</A>><BR>>
>> To:<BR>> >> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
>> Sent: Sun,<BR>> >> February 28, 2010 8:48:48 PM<BR>>
>> Subject: Re:<BR>> >> [NSRCA-discussion] Max
volts<BR>> >> <BR>> >> You would be at about 50%
capacity at 3.85 ish volts/cell<BR>> >> (resting open circuit),
so unless you up the capacity you<BR>> >> will have a pretty
restricted flight time.<BR>> >> <BR>> >>
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Chad</st1:place></st1:country-region><BR>> >> <BR>>
>> On 10-02-28 9:25 PM, Ron Van Putte wrote:<BR>> >>>
That stirs a wild thought in my brain. Fully<BR>> >> charged
packs don't stay at 4.2 volts per cell very<BR>> >> long. On the
other hand, once the initial charge<BR>> >> voltage is burned off
by a constant load, the voltage loss<BR>> >> curve "flattens
out". What if you put fully<BR>> >> charged 6S and a 5S packs in
series and "burn them<BR>> >> down" to 3.869 volts per cell (a
total of 42.56<BR>> >> volts for an 11-cell pack) so they were
legal for<BR>> >> use. Would the voltage of this depleted 11S
pack be<BR>> >> higher than a fully charged 10S pack at the end
of a typical<BR>> >> flight? If the end-of-flight voltage might
be<BR>> >> significantly higher for the 11S pack vice a 10S pack,
it<BR>> >> would be worth investigating, even considering the
extra<BR>> >> weight of the additional cell. Come on you
electronic<BR>> >> gurus, show me where I'm wrong.<BR>>
>>> <BR>> >>> Ron Van Putte<BR>> >>>
<BR>> >>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 10:00 PM, James Oddino
wrote:<BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>> What comes after
...? Does it specify a load<BR>> >> or any other conditions? Is
it measured during the<BR>> >> noise test and have a minimum
value?<BR>> >>>> <BR>> >>>> Just stirring
the pot, Jim O<BR>> >>>> <BR>> >>>> <BR>>
>>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, John Fuqua wrote:<BR>>
>>>> <BR>> >>>>> No its not (assuming we are
talking RC<BR>> >> Aerobatics). Try page RCA-2 para 4.1<BR>>
>>>>> which<BR>> >> states "Electrically-powered
model aircraft are<BR>> >> limited to a maximum<BR>>
>>>>> of 42.56 volts.."<BR>> >>>>>
<BR>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----<BR>>
>>>>> From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
>>>>> [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<BR>>
>> On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<BR>> >>>>> Sent:
Sunday, February 28, 2010 7:07 PM<BR>> >>>>> To:
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern
discussion</st1:PersonName><BR>> >>>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<BR>> >>>>> <BR>>
>>>>> It's in the general rules, not in the R/C<BR>>
>> section.<BR>> >>>>> <BR>>
>>>>> <BR>> >>>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at
6:50 PM, <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Jim Quinn</st1:PersonName>
wrote:<BR>> >>>>> <BR>> >>>>>>
Where can I find the rule<BR>> >> for max volts?<BR>>
>>>>>> <BR>> >>>>>> <BR>>
>> _______________________________________________<BR>>
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>
>>>>>> <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
>>>>>> <BR>> >> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>
>>>>> <BR>> >>>>> <BR>> >>
_______________________________________________<BR>>
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>
>>>>> <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
>>>>> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>
>>>>> <BR>> >>>>> <BR>> >>
_______________________________________________<BR>>
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing<BR>> >>
list<BR>> >>>>> <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
>>>>> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>
>>>> <BR>> >>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> >>>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> >>>> <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
>>>> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>
>>> <BR>> >>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> >>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> >>> <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
>>> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>
>>> <BR>> >>
_______________________________________________<BR>> >>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> >> <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
>> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>
>> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>>
>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR>> >> <BR>>
>> _______________________________________________<BR>> >>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> >> <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
>> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>
> <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>> >
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> > <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR>>
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