<html>
<body>
<font size=3>I probably should not jump into this, since I don't have a
dog in this fight, but here goes: <br><br>
I quote from the quote below:
</font><tt><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2 color="#0000FF">Radio
equipment shall be of the open loop type (ie no electronic feedback from
the model aircraft to the ground</u>).<br><br>
</font></tt><font size=3>That says to me that any <u>internal</u>
feedback loops are permitted, since the ESC, the servo control systems,
and the EFI module are not communicating with "the ground"
which I take it to mean the larger outside (the aircraft) world.
This wording is in the rule, itself, not in the examples. I would
be prepared to argue that these systems, which are already in use, are
NOT illegal...gyros and other autopilot devices must obtain information
from the aircraft's external environment in order to function properly.
JMHO...<br><br>
At 01:26 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote:<br>
</font><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font face="arial" size=2>
Yes, indeed, and I agree. On the digital vs analog servo also. <br>
<br>
Matt<br><br>
<br><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Earl Haury <ejhaury@comcast.net><br>
To: General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:01 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br><br>
</font><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=3>Somewhat reluctantly I'm
going to jump into this discussion and try to dissect it a bit. It
appears to me that maybe more is being read into the rules than is
actually there. There is one paragraph of three sentences that addresses
what type of control is permitted and what is not. Then there are
some examples of what is permitted and what is not. (See below.)
"Examples" by definition aren't all inclusive. I think we
probably all agree on the "open loop" concept. The ESC
discussion seems to fall somewhere in the "auto-pilot
exclusion" and "automatic control sequencing
(pre-programming) or automatic control timing device" prohibition
seems to be where this discussion lies.<br>
What's being proposed for ESC functionality, as I understand it, would
ensure the same prop speed for a given throttle stick position. Not much
difference than a fuel supply control system that ensures the same fuel
delivery to the engine at a given throttle position. In neither case is
the propulsion system controlling aircraft speed via a feedback loop, the
nut on the stick is doing that. Seems OK within the rules to me. <br>
OTOH, I understand the view that control algorithms are doing magic
changing "timing" of electrical pulses to the motor. I would
argue this is outside the "automatic control timing device"
rule which was intended to prevent automatic "control" inputs
directly. Yes - I was around when these rules were discussed and
implemented, so I have some insight at to their intent. I also realize
that there are things around now that weren't at that time that merit
these discussions. It would seem that if everyone feels passionately
enough about this an easy fix would to add a sentence (pro or con) in the
examples part of the rule that is specific to this topic, therefore
keeping the "worms in the can".<br>
Hmmm as Dave says - I wonder how the control algorithms of a servo fit
into this, lots of electronic magic going on there.<br>
Earl<br>
</font><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>"Radio equipment shall
be of the open loop type (ie no electronic feedback from the model
aircraft<br>
to the ground). Auto-pilot control utilising inertia, gravity or any type
of terrestrial reference is<br>
prohibited. Automatic control sequencing (pre-programming) or automatic
control timing devices<br>
are prohibited.<br>
Example: Permitted:<br>
1. Control rate devices that are manually switched by the pilot.<br>
2. Any type of button or lever, switch, or dial control that is initiated
or activated and terminated<br>
by the competitor.<br>
3. Manually operated switches or programmable options to couple and mix
control functions.<br>
</font><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=1>SC4_Vol_F3_Aerobatics_09
Effective 1st January 2009 Page 10<br>
5<br>
</font><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2><b>Not </b>permitted:<br>
1. Snap roll buttons with automatic timing mode.<br>
2. Pre-programming devices to automatically perform a series of
commands.<br>
3. Auto-pilots or gyros for automatic wing levelling or other
stabilisation of the model aircraft.<br>
4. Propeller pitch change with automatic timing mode.<br>
5. Any type of voice recognition system.<br>
6. Conditions, switches, throttle curves, or any other mechanical or
electronic device that will<br>
prevent or limit maximum power or rpm of the propulsion device during the
sound/noise test.<br>
7. Any type of learning function involving manoeuvre to manoeuvre or
flight to flight analysis."<br>
</font>
<dl>
<dd>----- Original Message ----- <br>
<dd>From:</b> <a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">Dave</a> <br>
<dd>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General
pattern discussion'</a> <br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 03, 2010 9:47 AM<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br><br>
<dd><font face="Verdana" size=2 color="#000080">Matt,<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>One more thought/consideration/question –<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Is electronic ignition with variable timing advance illegal?
Essentially the RPM is sensed (through a sensor), and as RPM increases,
the timing is advanced. The ESCs of today do the same function…they
advance timing as RPM increases, but do so without sensor.. Should
we go back to sensors and mechanical advance devices?<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Regards,<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Dave<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>On Mar 2, 2010, at 8:15 AM,
<a href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</a> wrote:<br>
<dl>
<dd> <br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>I had a brief conversation with
Dean Pappas on this subject recently. Dean explained that some folks have
been advocates of programming the ESC to do some footwork at various
stages of battery use. He explained to me just how easy this is to do
physically. It seems a few have mentioned something similar in this
thread.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>I am not that concerned about raising the voltage of the battery as I
see this as a somewhat clear violation of the FAI code. I am more
concerned about what and how the ESC is "programmed" . I would
like for some one with the electronic/software pedigree to explain to me
how programming adjustable rates of voltage potential and making these
adjustments automatically, does not constitute a programming violation
within the rules as they exist today. <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>When the rules were written, we were clearly dealing with RADIO
pre-programmed sequences and the like, no gyros, etc. However I would
argue that rate auto adjustments that are definitely possible with the
ESC's of today, also qualify as a violation of said rules. Someone should
sit down and think this through...I could be convinced otherwise but it
needs to be a good argument<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>MattK<br><br>
<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>-----Original Message-----<br>
<dd>From: Anthony Romano
<<a href="mailto:anthonyr105@hotmail.com">anthonyr105@hotmail.com</a>
><br>
<dd>To:
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<dd>Sent: Tue, Mar 2, 2010 8:29 am<br>
<dd>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
<dd>Keep this line of thinking in mind next time we talk about weight
limits! Or any other rules proposal.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Anthony<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>> From:
<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a><br>
<dd>> To:
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<dd>> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:45:57 -0500<br>
<dd>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
<dd>> <br>
<dd>> OK, So I have a question. Is knowingly and purposefully
violating the intent<br>
<dd>> and letter of the rules to gain a performance advantage called
cheating?<br>
<dd>> ....... Just asking!<br>
<dd>> Dave Burton<br>
<dd>> <br>
<dd>> -----Original Message-----<br>
<dd>> From:
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<dd>>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of James
Oddino<br>
<dd>> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 7:16 PM<br>
<dd>> To: General pattern discussion<br>
<dd>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
<dd>> <br>
<dd>> I have the functional concept that solves the rules problem.
Picture a 10S<br>
<dd>> pack positive lead wired to the common of a switch with two
poles, a piece<br>
<dd>> of wire connected from one pole to a pole on a second two pole
switch with<br>
<dd>> its common connected to the ESC. Between the other two poles we
place our<br>
<dd>> 11th cell. When the 10S pack is above 37.5 volts the 11th cell
is bypassed<br>
<dd>> and when it is below, like it will be during vertical maneuvers
late in<br>
<dd>> flight, the 11th cell is put in series to boost the voltage to
up to 41.7<br>
<dd>> volts. At no time is the voltage over the spec.<br>
<dd>> <br>
<dd>> Having said that, I believe the 10S system provides adequate
power with the<br>
<dd>> right motor at all times of flight even if the voltage drops to
35 volts.<br>
<dd>> <br>
<dd>> Jim<br>
<dd>> <br>
<dd>> <br>
<dd>> On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:59 AM, Bob Kane wrote:<br>
<dd>> <br>
<dd>> > Going higher and regulating down would be against the
rules, the max volts<br>
<dd>> is still limited to 42.56. <br>
<dd>> > <br>
<dd>> > Bob Kane<br>
<dd>> >
<a href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><br>
<dd>> > <br>
<dd>> > <br>
<dd>> > --- On Mon, 3/1/10, krishlan fitzsimmons
<<a href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">
homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<dd>> wrote:<br>
<dd>> > <br>
<dd>> >> From: krishlan fitzsimmons
<<a href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">
homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<dd>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
<dd>> >> To:
<a href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</a>, "General
pattern discussion"<br>
<dd>>
<<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
<dd>> >> Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 9:54 AM<br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> Couldn't we go to a higher voltage and<br>
<dd>> >> regulate it back down? A contstant 42.56v would be
nice!<br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> Chris <br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> From: Chad<br>
<dd>> >> Northeast
<<a href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</a>><br>
<dd>> >> To:<br>
<dd>> >>
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<dd>> >> Sent: Sun,<br>
<dd>> >> February 28, 2010 8:48:48 PM<br>
<dd>> >> Subject: Re:<br>
<dd>> >> [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> You would be at about 50% capacity at 3.85 ish
volts/cell<br>
<dd>> >> (resting open circuit), so unless you up the capacity
you<br>
<dd>> >> will have a pretty restricted flight time.<br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> Chad<br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> On 10-02-28 9:25 PM, Ron Van Putte wrote:<br>
<dd>> >>> That stirs a wild thought in my brain. Fully<br>
<dd>> >> charged packs don't stay at 4.2 volts per cell
very<br>
<dd>> >> long. On the other hand, once the initial charge<br>
<dd>> >> voltage is burned off by a constant load, the voltage
loss<br>
<dd>> >> curve "flattens out". What if you put
fully<br>
<dd>> >> charged 6S and a 5S packs in series and "burn
them<br>
<dd>> >> down" to 3.869 volts per cell (a total of
42.56<br>
<dd>> >> volts for an 11-cell pack) so they were legal for<br>
<dd>> >> use. Would the voltage of this depleted 11S pack
be<br>
<dd>> >> higher than a fully charged 10S pack at the end of a
typical<br>
<dd>> >> flight? If the end-of-flight voltage might be<br>
<dd>> >> significantly higher for the 11S pack vice a 10S pack,
it<br>
<dd>> >> would be worth investigating, even considering the
extra<br>
<dd>> >> weight of the additional cell. Come on you
electronic<br>
<dd>> >> gurus, show me where I'm wrong.<br>
<dd>> >>> <br>
<dd>> >>> Ron Van Putte<br>
<dd>> >>> <br>
<dd>> >>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 10:00 PM, James Oddino
wrote:<br>
<dd>> >>> <br>
<dd>> >>>> What comes after ...? Does it specify a
load<br>
<dd>> >> or any other conditions? Is it measured during the<br>
<dd>> >> noise test and have a minimum value?<br>
<dd>> >>>> <br>
<dd>> >>>> Just stirring the pot, Jim O<br>
<dd>> >>>> <br>
<dd>> >>>> <br>
<dd>> >>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, John Fuqua
wrote:<br>
<dd>> >>>> <br>
<dd>> >>>>> No its not (assuming we are talking RC<br>
<dd>> >> Aerobatics). Try page RCA-2 para 4.1<br>
<dd>> >>>>> which<br>
<dd>> >> states "Electrically-powered model aircraft
are<br>
<dd>> >> limited to a maximum<br>
<dd>> >>>>> of 42.56 volts.."<br>
<dd>> >>>>> <br>
<dd>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
<dd>> >>>>> From:
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<dd>> >>>>>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<br>
<dd>> >> On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<br>
<dd>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 7:07
PM<br>
<dd>> >>>>> To: General pattern discussion<br>
<dd>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max
volts<br>
<dd>> >>>>> <br>
<dd>> >>>>> It's in the general rules, not in the
R/C<br>
<dd>> >> section.<br>
<dd>> >>>>> <br>
<dd>> >>>>> <br>
<dd>> >>>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Jim Quinn
wrote:<br>
<dd>> >>>>> <br>
<dd>> >>>>>> Where can I find the rule<br>
<dd>> >> for max volts?<br>
<dd>> >>>>>> <br>
<dd>> >>>>>> <br>
<dd>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
<dd>> >>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<dd>> >>>>>>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<dd>> >>>>>> <br>
<dd>> >>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" eudora="autourl">
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
<dd>> >>>>> <br>
<dd>> >>>>> <br>
<dd>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
<dd>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<dd>> >>>>>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<dd>> >>>>>
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http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
<dd>> >>>>> <br>
<dd>> >>>>> <br>
<dd>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
<dd>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing<br>
<dd>> >> list<br>
<dd>> >>>>>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<dd>> >>>>>
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http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
<dd>> >>>> <br>
<dd>> >>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
<dd>> >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<dd>> >>>>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
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http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
<dd>> >>> <br>
<dd>> >>>
_______________________________________________<br>
<dd>> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<dd>> >>>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<dd>> >>>
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http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
<dd>> >>> <br>
<dd>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
<dd>> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<dd>> >>
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NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
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http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br>
<dd>> >> <br>
<dd>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
<dd>> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
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<dd>> > <br>
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<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<b><i>--><font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=3 color="#800000">There
are only two types of aircraft -- fighters and targets.<br><br>
</i></b></font><font size=3>Phil Spelt, Past President, Knox County Radio
Control Society, Inc.<br>
URL:
<a href="http://www.kcrctn.com/" eudora="autourl">
http://www.kcrctn.com<br>
</a>AMA--1294, Scientific Leader Member, SPA--177<br>
My URL:
<a href="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/~chuenkan/" eudora="autourl">
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/~chuenkan/<br>
</a> (865) 435-1476 v (865) 604-0541
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