<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Tim, I would say you are breaking the law. You are automatically sequencing the controls. However, you would seem to get a pass based on Permitted Number 3, ....switches to... mix control functions. That is a poorly written rule.<div><br></div><div>We are all breaking the second part, ...automatic control timing devices are prohibited, and always have as our radios are full of automatic control timing devices. As Earl mentioned, servos are a good example. The position of the servo output shaft automatically controls the timing of a pulse generator. We are talking about a similar servo loop within the ESC. It is not an automatic timing device in the outer man- machine loop which I believe is what the rule was aimed at.</div><div><br></div><div>Change the rule or ignore it.</div><div><br></div><div>Jim</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Mar 3, 2010, at 8:35 AM, Pascoe,Tim [Burlington] wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="country-region">
<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place">
<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Comic Sans MS";
panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
pre
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
tt
{font-family:"Courier New";}
p.ecxmsonormal, li.ecxmsonormal, div.ecxmsonormal
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.ecxnormalweb1, li.ecxnormalweb1, div.ecxnormalweb1
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.ecxnormalweb2, li.ecxnormalweb2, div.ecxnormalweb2
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.ecxnormalweb3, li.ecxnormalweb3, div.ecxnormalweb3
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.ecxnormalweb4, li.ecxnormalweb4, div.ecxnormalweb4
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.ecxnormalweb5, li.ecxnormalweb5, div.ecxnormalweb5
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.ecxnormalweb6, li.ecxnormalweb6, div.ecxnormalweb6
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.ecxmsonormal1, li.ecxmsonormal1, div.ecxmsonormal1
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.ecxnormalweb11, li.ecxnormalweb11, div.ecxnormalweb11
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.ecxnormalweb21, li.ecxnormalweb21, div.ecxnormalweb21
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.ecxnormalweb31, li.ecxnormalweb31, div.ecxnormalweb31
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.ecxnormalweb41, li.ecxnormalweb41, div.ecxnormalweb41
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.ecxnormalweb51, li.ecxnormalweb51, div.ecxnormalweb51
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.ecxnormalweb61, li.ecxnormalweb61, div.ecxnormalweb61
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.ecxmsohyperlink1
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.ecxmsohyperlinkfollowed1
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.ecxemailstyle261
{font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
span.EmailStyle37
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
span.EmailStyle38
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="blue">
<div class="Section1"><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">In reading this, it seems the logic programming
available in radios such as the 14MZ, which permit rate changes automatically based
on single or multiple stick positions would be illegal. So when I set a
condition to drop the Elevator rate by half as soon as full Elevator and full
Rudder are initiated, at the entry to a snap, I seem to breaking Number 3 in
the Not Permitted list below.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Correct?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy">Tim Pascoe <br>
<br>
</span></font><font size="1" color="navy" face="Comic Sans MS"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma">
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style="font-weight:
bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Earl Haury<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, March 03, 2010
11:02 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <st1:personname w:st="on">General
pattern discussion</st1:personname><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Max volts</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Somewhat
reluctantly I'm going to jump into this discussion and try to dissect it a bit.
It appears to me that maybe more is being read into the rules than is actually
there. There is one paragraph of three sentences that addresses what type of
control is permitted and what is not. Then there are some examples of
what is permitted and what is not. (See below.) "Examples" by
definition aren't all inclusive. I think we probably all agree on the
"open loop" concept. The ESC discussion seems to fall somewhere in
the "auto-pilot exclusion" and "automatic control
sequencing (pre-programming) or automatic control timing device"
prohibition seems to be where this discussion lies.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">What's
being proposed for ESC functionality, as I understand it, would ensure the same
prop speed for a given throttle stick position. Not much difference than a fuel
supply control system that ensures the same fuel delivery to the engine at a
given throttle position. In neither case is the propulsion system controlling
aircraft speed via a feedback loop, the nut on the stick is doing that. Seems
OK within the rules to me. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">OTOH, I
understand the view that control algorithms are doing magic changing
"timing" of electrical pulses to the motor. I would argue this is
outside the "automatic control timing device" rule which was intended
to prevent automatic "control" inputs directly. Yes - I was
around when these rules were discussed and implemented, so I have some
insight at to their intent. I also realize that there are things
around now that weren't at that time that merit these discussions. It
would seem that if everyone feels passionately enough about this an easy
fix would to add a sentence (pro or con) in the examples part of the rule that
is specific to this topic, therefore keeping the "worms in the can".<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Hmmm as
Dave says - I wonder how the control algorithms of a servo fit into this, lots
of electronic magic going on there.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Earl<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">"Radio
equipment shall be of the open loop type (ie no electronic feedback from the
model aircraft<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">to the
ground). Auto-pilot control utilising inertia, gravity or any type of
terrestrial reference is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">prohibited.
Automatic control sequencing (pre-programming) or automatic control timing
devices<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">are
prohibited.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Example:
Permitted:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">1.
Control rate devices that are manually switched by the pilot.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">2. Any
type of button or lever, switch, or dial control that is initiated or activated
and terminated<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">by the
competitor.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">3.
Manually operated switches or programmable options to couple and mix control
functions.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">SC4_Vol_F3_Aerobatics_09
Effective 1st January 2009 Page 10<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">5<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><b><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold">Not </span></font></b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">permitted:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">1. Snap
roll buttons with automatic timing mode.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">2.
Pre-programming devices to automatically perform a series of commands.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">3.
Auto-pilots or gyros for automatic wing levelling or other stabilisation of the
model aircraft.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">4.
Propeller pitch change with automatic timing mode.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">5. Any
type of voice recognition system.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">6.
Conditions, switches, throttle curves, or any other mechanical or electronic
device that will<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">prevent
or limit maximum power or rpm of the propulsion device during the sound/noise
test.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">7. Any
type of learning function involving manoeuvre to manoeuvre or flight to flight
analysis."<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style="font-color:black"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#E4E4E4"><b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> <a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net" title="DaveL322@comcast.net">Dave</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">To:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> Wednesday, March
03, 2010 9:47 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy">Matt,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy">One
more thought/consideration/question –<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy">Is
electronic ignition with variable timing advance illegal? Essentially the
RPM is sensed (through a sensor), and as RPM increases, the timing is
advanced. The ESCs of today do the same function…they advance
timing as RPM increases, but do so without sensor. Should we go back to
sensors and mechanical advance devices?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy">Dave<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana">On Mar 2, 2010, at 8:15 AM, <a href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">I had a
brief conversation with Dean Pappas on this subject recently. Dean explained
that some folks have been advocates of programming the ESC to do some footwork
at various stages of battery use. He explained to me just how easy this is to
do physically. It seems a few have mentioned something similar in this thread.</span></font><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"> </span></font><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">I am
not that concerned about raising the voltage of the battery as I see this as a
somewhat clear violation of the FAI code. I am more concerned about what
and how the ESC is "programmed" . I would like for some one with the
electronic/software pedigree to explain to me how programming adjustable rates
of voltage potential and making these adjustments automatically, does not
constitute a programming violation within the rules as they exist today. </span></font><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"> </span></font><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">When
the rules were written, we were clearly dealing with RADIO pre-programmed
sequences and the like, no gyros, etc. However I would argue that rate auto
adjustments that are definitely possible with the ESC's of today, also qualify
as a violation of said rules. Someone should sit down and think this
through...I could be convinced otherwise but it needs to be a good argument</span></font><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"> </span></font><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">MattK</span></font><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"> </span></font><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Anthony Romano <<a href="mailto:anthonyr105@hotmail.com">anthonyr105@hotmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Sent: Tue, Mar 2, 2010 8:29 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts</span></font><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id="ecxecxAOLMsgPart_3_a1464e77-3c63-4f8d-b134-28eaec9f2cea"><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">Keep this line of
thinking in mind next time we talk about weight limits! Or any other rules
proposal.<br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:45:57 -0500<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> <br>
> OK, So I have a question. Is knowingly and purposefully violating the
intent<br>
> and letter of the rules to gain a performance advantage called cheating?<br>
> ....... Just asking!<br>
> Dave Burton<br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of James Oddino<br>
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 7:16 PM<br>
> To: <st1:personname w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:personname><br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> <br>
> I have the functional concept that solves the rules problem. Picture a 10S<br>
> pack positive lead wired to the common of a switch with two poles, a piece<br>
> of wire connected from one pole to a pole on a second two pole switch with<br>
> its common connected to the ESC. Between the other two poles we place our<br>
> 11th cell. When the 10S pack is above 37.5 volts the 11th cell is bypassed<br>
> and when it is below, like it will be during vertical maneuvers late in<br>
> flight, the 11th cell is put in series to boost the voltage to up to 41.7<br>
> volts. At no time is the voltage over the spec.<br>
> <br>
> Having said that, I believe the 10S system provides adequate power with
the<br>
> right motor at all times of flight even if the voltage drops to 35 volts.<br>
> <br>
> Jim<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:59 AM, Bob Kane wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > Going higher and regulating down would be against the rules, the max
volts<br>
> is still limited to 42.56. <br>
> > <br>
> > Bob Kane<br>
> > <a href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > --- On Mon, 3/1/10, krishlan fitzsimmons <<a href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> >> From: krishlan fitzsimmons <<a href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</a>><br>
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> >> To: <a href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</a>,
"<st1:personname w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:personname>"<br>
> <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
> >> Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 9:54 AM<br>
> >> <br>
> >> Couldn't we go to a higher voltage and<br>
> >> regulate it back down? A contstant 42.56v would be nice!<br>
> >> <br>
> >> Chris <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> From: <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Chad</st1:country-region></st1:place><br>
> >> Northeast <<a href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</a>><br>
> >> To:<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >> Sent: Sun,<br>
> >> February 28, 2010 8:48:48 PM<br>
> >> Subject: Re:<br>
> >> [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> >> <br>
> >> You would be at about 50% capacity at 3.85 ish volts/cell<br>
> >> (resting open circuit), so unless you up the capacity you<br>
> >> will have a pretty restricted flight time.<br>
> >> <br>
> >> <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Chad</st1:country-region></st1:place><br>
> >> <br>
> >> On 10-02-28 9:25 PM, Ron Van Putte wrote:<br>
> >>> That stirs a wild thought in my brain. Fully<br>
> >> charged packs don't stay at 4.2 volts per cell very<br>
> >> long. On the other hand, once the initial charge<br>
> >> voltage is burned off by a constant load, the voltage loss<br>
> >> curve "flattens out". What if you put fully<br>
> >> charged 6S and a 5S packs in series and "burn them<br>
> >> down" to 3.869 volts per cell (a total of 42.56<br>
> >> volts for an 11-cell pack) so they were legal for<br>
> >> use. Would the voltage of this depleted 11S pack be<br>
> >> higher than a fully charged 10S pack at the end of a typical<br>
> >> flight? If the end-of-flight voltage might be<br>
> >> significantly higher for the 11S pack vice a 10S pack, it<br>
> >> would be worth investigating, even considering the extra<br>
> >> weight of the additional cell. Come on you electronic<br>
> >> gurus, show me where I'm wrong.<br>
> >>> <br>
> >>> Ron Van Putte<br>
> >>> <br>
> >>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 10:00 PM, James Oddino wrote:<br>
> >>> <br>
> >>>> What comes after ...? Does it specify a load<br>
> >> or any other conditions? Is it measured during the<br>
> >> noise test and have a minimum value?<br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> Just stirring the pot, Jim O<br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, John Fuqua wrote:<br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>>> No its not (assuming we are talking RC<br>
> >> Aerobatics). Try page RCA-2 para 4.1<br>
> >>>>> which<br>
> >> states "Electrically-powered model aircraft are<br>
> >> limited to a maximum<br>
> >>>>> of 42.56 volts.."<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
> >>>>> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >>>>> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<br>
> >> On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<br>
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 7:07 PM<br>
> >>>>> To: <st1:personname w:st="on">General pattern
discussion</st1:personname><br>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> It's in the general rules, not in the R/C<br>
> >> section.<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Jim Quinn wrote:<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>>> Where can I find the rule<br>
> >> for max volts?<br>
> >>>>>> <br>
> >>>>>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >>>>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >>>>>> <br>
> >> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >>>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >>>>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing<br>
> >> list<br>
> >>>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >>>>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >>>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >>> <br>
> >>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br>
> >> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> > <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> No virus found in this incoming message.<br>
> Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com/">www.avg.com</a> <br>
> Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/01/10<br>
> 14:34:00<br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></font></div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">Hotmail:
Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. <a href="http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/">Sign up now.</a> = </span></font><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="ecxecxAOLMsgPart_4_a1464e77-3c63-4f8d-b134-28eaec9f2cea"><pre style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><tt><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">_______________________________________________</span></font></tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><tt><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">NSRCA-discussion mailing list</span></font></tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><tt><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a></span></font></tt><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><tt><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font></tt><o:p></o:p></pre></div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana">_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></font></div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana">Hotmail: Trusted email with
powerful SPAM protection. <a href="http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/">Sign up now.</a><br>
<br>
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 4910 (20100302) __________<br>
<br>
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.eset.com/">http://www.eset.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana">Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail
Free. <a href="http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/" target="_new">Sign
up now.</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>