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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2 face=Arial><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<P align=left><FONT size=3>Somewhat reluctantly I'm going to jump into this
discussion and try to dissect it a bit. It appears to me that maybe more is
being read into the rules than is actually there. There is one paragraph of
three sentences that addresses what type of control is permitted and what
is not. Then there are some examples of what is permitted and what is not. (See
below.) "Examples" by definition aren't all inclusive. </FONT><FONT size=3>I
think we probably all agree on the "open loop" concept. The ESC discussion seems
to fall somewhere in the "auto-pilot exclusion" and "automatic
control sequencing (pre-programming) or automatic control timing device"
prohibition seems to be where this discussion lies.</FONT></P>
<P align=left><FONT size=3>What's being proposed for ESC functionality, as I
understand it, would ensure the same prop speed for a given throttle stick
position. Not much difference than a fuel supply control system that ensures the
same fuel delivery to the engine at a given throttle position. In neither case
is the propulsion system controlling aircraft speed via a feedback loop,
the nut on the stick is doing that. Seems OK within the rules to me. </FONT></P>
<P align=left><FONT size=3>OTOH, I understand the view that control algorithms
are doing magic changing "timing" of electrical pulses to the motor. I would
argue this is outside the "automatic control timing device" rule which was
intended to prevent automatic "control" inputs directly. Yes - I was around
when these rules were discussed and implemented, so I have some insight at
to their intent. I also realize that there are things around now that
weren't at that time that merit these discussions. It would seem that if
everyone feels passionately enough about this an easy fix would to add a
sentence (pro or con) in the examples part of the rule that is specific to this
topic, therefore keeping the "worms in the can".</FONT></P>
<P align=left><FONT size=3>Hmmm as Dave says - I wonder how the control
algorithms of a servo fit into this, lots of electronic magic going on
there.</FONT></P>
<P align=left><FONT size=3>Earl</FONT></P>
<P align=left>"Radio equipment shall be of the open loop type (ie no electronic
feedback from the model aircraft</P>
<P align=left>to the ground). Auto-pilot control utilising inertia, gravity or
any type of terrestrial reference is</P>
<P align=left>prohibited. Automatic control sequencing (pre-programming) or
automatic control timing devices</P>
<P align=left>are prohibited.</P>
<P align=left>Example: Permitted:</P>
<P align=left>1. Control rate devices that are manually switched by the
pilot.</P>
<P align=left>2. Any type of button or lever, switch, or dial control that is
initiated or activated and terminated</P>
<P align=left>by the competitor.</P>
<P align=left>3. Manually operated switches or programmable options to couple
and mix control functions.</P></FONT></FONT><FONT size=1 face=Arial><FONT size=1
face=Arial>
<P align=left>SC4_Vol_F3_Aerobatics_09 Effective 1st January 2009 Page 10</P>
<P align=left>5</P></FONT></FONT><B><FONT size=2 face=Arial><FONT size=2
face=Arial>
<P align=left>Not </B></FONT></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial><FONT size=2
face=Arial>permitted:</P>
<P align=left>1. Snap roll buttons with automatic timing mode.</P>
<P align=left>2. Pre-programming devices to automatically perform a series of
commands.</P>
<P align=left>3. Auto-pilots or gyros for automatic wing levelling or other
stabilisation of the model aircraft.</P>
<P align=left>4. Propeller pitch change with automatic timing mode.</P>
<P align=left>5. Any type of voice recognition system.</P>
<P align=left>6. Conditions, switches, throttle curves, or any other mechanical
or electronic device that will</P>
<P align=left>prevent or limit maximum power or rpm of the propulsion device
during the sound/noise test.</P>
<P>7. Any type of learning function involving manoeuvre to manoeuvre or flight
to flight analysis."</P></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">Dave</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 03, 2010 9:47
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max
volts</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Matt,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">One more
thought/consideration/question –<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Is electronic
ignition with variable timing advance illegal? Essentially the RPM is
sensed (through a sensor), and as RPM increases, the timing is advanced.
The ESCs of today do the same function…they advance timing as RPM increases,
but do so without sensor. Should we go back to sensors and mechanical
advance devices?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dave<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">On Mar 2, 2010, at 8:15 AM, <A
href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=2
face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2
face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
had a brief conversation with Dean Pappas on this subject recently. Dean
explained that some folks have been advocates of programming the ESC to do
some footwork at various stages of battery use. He explained to me just how
easy this is to do physically. It seems a few have mentioned something
similar in this thread.</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2
face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2
face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
am not that concerned about raising the voltage of the battery as I see this
as a somewhat clear violation of the FAI code. I am more concerned
about what and how the ESC is "programmed" . I would like for some one with
the electronic/software pedigree to explain to me how programming adjustable
rates of voltage potential and making these adjustments automatically, does
not constitute a programming violation within the rules as they exist today.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2
face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2
face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">When the rules
were written, we were clearly dealing with RADIO pre-programmed
sequences and the like, no gyros, etc. However I would argue that rate auto
adjustments that are definitely possible with the ESC's of today, also
qualify as a violation of said rules. Someone should sit down and think this
through...I could be convinced otherwise but it needs to be a good
argument</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2
face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2
face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">MattK</SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2
face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR><BR> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"
class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"
class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Anthony Romano <<A
href="mailto:anthonyr105@hotmail.com">anthonyr105@hotmail.com</A>><BR>To:
<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Sent:
Tue, Mar 2, 2010 8:29 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max
volts</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Verdana><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV id=ecxecxAOLMsgPart_3_a1464e77-3c63-4f8d-b134-28eaec9f2cea>
<P
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"
class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Keep this line of
thinking in mind next time we talk about weight limits! Or any other rules
proposal.<BR> <BR>Anthony<BR> <BR>> From: <A
href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</A><BR>> To: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:45:57 -0500<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Max volts<BR>> <BR>> OK, So I have a question. Is knowingly and
purposefully violating the intent<BR>> and letter of the rules to gain a
performance advantage called cheating?<BR>> ....... Just asking!<BR>>
Dave Burton<BR>> <BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of James Oddino<BR>> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 7:16
PM<BR>> To: General pattern discussion<BR>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<BR>> <BR>> I have the functional concept
that solves the rules problem. Picture a 10S<BR>> pack positive lead
wired to the common of a switch with two poles, a piece<BR>> of wire
connected from one pole to a pole on a second two pole switch with<BR>>
its common connected to the ESC. Between the other two poles we place
our<BR>> 11th cell. When the 10S pack is above 37.5 volts the 11th cell
is bypassed<BR>> and when it is below, like it will be during vertical
maneuvers late in<BR>> flight, the 11th cell is put in series to boost
the voltage to up to 41.7<BR>> volts. At no time is the voltage over the
spec.<BR>> <BR>> Having said that, I believe the 10S system provides
adequate power with the<BR>> right motor at all times of flight even if
the voltage drops to 35 volts.<BR>> <BR>> Jim<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:59 AM, Bob Kane wrote:<BR>> <BR>> >
Going higher and regulating down would be against the rules, the max
volts<BR>> is still limited to 42.56. <BR>> > <BR>> > Bob
Kane<BR>> > <A
href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><BR>> >
<BR>> > <BR>> > --- On Mon, 3/1/10, krishlan fitzsimmons <<A
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>
wrote:<BR>> > <BR>> >> From: krishlan fitzsimmons <<A
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<BR>> >> To: <A
href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</A>, "General pattern
discussion"<BR>> <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>>
>> Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 9:54 AM<BR>> >> <BR>>
>> Couldn't we go to a higher voltage and<BR>> >> regulate it
back down? A contstant 42.56v would be nice!<BR>> >> <BR>>
>> Chris <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >>
<BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >>
<BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> From:
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Chad</st1:place></st1:country-region><BR>> >> Northeast
<<A href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</A>><BR>>
>> To:<BR>> >> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
>> Sent: Sun,<BR>> >> February 28, 2010 8:48:48 PM<BR>>
>> Subject: Re:<BR>> >> [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<BR>>
>> <BR>> >> You would be at about 50% capacity at 3.85 ish
volts/cell<BR>> >> (resting open circuit), so unless you up the
capacity you<BR>> >> will have a pretty restricted flight
time.<BR>> >> <BR>> >> <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Chad</st1:place></st1:country-region><BR>>
>> <BR>> >> On 10-02-28 9:25 PM, Ron Van Putte wrote:<BR>>
>>> That stirs a wild thought in my brain. Fully<BR>> >>
charged packs don't stay at 4.2 volts per cell very<BR>> >> long.
On the other hand, once the initial charge<BR>> >> voltage is
burned off by a constant load, the voltage loss<BR>> >> curve
"flattens out". What if you put fully<BR>> >> charged 6S and a 5S
packs in series and "burn them<BR>> >> down" to 3.869 volts per
cell (a total of 42.56<BR>> >> volts for an 11-cell pack) so they
were legal for<BR>> >> use. Would the voltage of this depleted 11S
pack be<BR>> >> higher than a fully charged 10S pack at the end of
a typical<BR>> >> flight? If the end-of-flight voltage might
be<BR>> >> significantly higher for the 11S pack vice a 10S pack,
it<BR>> >> would be worth investigating, even considering the
extra<BR>> >> weight of the additional cell. Come on you
electronic<BR>> >> gurus, show me where I'm wrong.<BR>>
>>> <BR>> >>> Ron Van Putte<BR>> >>>
<BR>> >>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 10:00 PM, James Oddino
wrote:<BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>> What comes after ...?
Does it specify a load<BR>> >> or any other conditions? Is it
measured during the<BR>> >> noise test and have a minimum
value?<BR>> >>>> <BR>> >>>> Just stirring the
pot, Jim O<BR>> >>>> <BR>> >>>> <BR>>
>>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, John Fuqua wrote:<BR>>
>>>> <BR>> >>>>> No its not (assuming we are
talking RC<BR>> >> Aerobatics). Try page RCA-2 para 4.1<BR>>
>>>>> which<BR>> >> states "Electrically-powered
model aircraft are<BR>> >> limited to a maximum<BR>>
>>>>> of 42.56 volts.."<BR>> >>>>> <BR>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> >>>>>
From: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>>
>>>>> [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<BR>>
>> On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<BR>> >>>>> Sent:
Sunday, February 28, 2010 7:07 PM<BR>> >>>>> To: General
pattern discussion<BR>> >>>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<BR>> >>>>> <BR>>
>>>>> It's in the general rules, not in the R/C<BR>>
>> section.<BR>> >>>>> <BR>> >>>>>
<BR>> >>>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Jim Quinn
wrote:<BR>> >>>>> <BR>> >>>>>> Where
can I find the rule<BR>> >> for max volts?<BR>>
>>>>>> <BR>> >>>>>> <BR>> >>
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>>>>> <BR>> >>>>> <BR>> >>
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