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<div style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Dave <DaveL322@comcast.net><br>
To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Tue, Mar 2, 2010 11:43 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
<br>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Matt,</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Interesting discussion/topic so far as the legality aspect within the current rules.</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">When I first started with electrics, I showed the FAI and AMA rules to one of my early electric mentors……he wasn’t convinced the ESCs and software used back then (7 years ago) would be deemed “legal” in a “court of law”.</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A simple example….the timing ESCs use is dynamic…it adjusts based on the RPM and load on the motor. So the timing on the ground is likely different than the timing they use in the air – ie, the motor just might turn more RPM in the air (louder). Is this cheating the noise rule? <STRONG><EM><FONT color=crimson>(I am not sure whether it does or doesn't. To me, it depends on how the motor achieves this rpm increase. Noise alone, I say no way is it a violation--It seems similar to a wet set-up in the air which typically will turn more rpm due to unloading of the prop, except, it's electric and I don't think that is what happens in an electric set-up. The ESC needs to intervene to make the rpm adjustment and THAT, methinks, could be construed as a violation--MK)</FONT></EM></STRONG>Or is it simply a well engineered system designed to make the most power the most efficiently?</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The optimal IC setups rarely make peak RPM/power/noise on the ground. They make more RPM/power/noise in the air. Is this “cheating” the noise rule? <FONT color=crimson><STRONG><EM>(NO!!--MK )</EM></STRONG> </FONT>Or is it simply a well engineered system designed to make the most power the most efficiently?</SPAN></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’d suggest a switch on the TX that allowed the pilot to retard the timing (and thus reduce RPM, power, and noise) of the electric or IC system to pass the noise test and then make more power in the air would be cheating. <STRONG><EM><FONT color=crimson>(Not so sure about this being a violation within the current rules...to me it wouldn't be much different than a flight mode which is allowed--Point is it takes pilot intervention to make this happen. Pundits will argue that so does flipping a preprogrammed switch that adjust rates of function but I don't see it that way--MK)</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dual rates are legal. Are “auto” dual rates or “auto” snap conditions that change the airplane setup legal? <STRONG><EM><FONT color=crimson>(Well, we allow flight modes which are preprogrammed to set control authority at specific levels; what is not set is auto-variability in these rates once the switch is thrown, depending on where or how the plane is flown--MK)</FONT></EM></STRONG> The TX is pre-programmed to react a specific way to a specific set of conditions. This is exactly what the ESC is doing, and just what the OS EFI does. (<STRONG><EM><FONT color=crimson>I don't think so...I THINK (but not sure) that ESCs are changing the amount of power they feed the motor based on load. If that's what the EFI did, we were wrong to allow it. To me, if true, it gave auto-authority to something beyond operator control and an advantage to those users on power management with no input from them whatever...except with their pocketbooks---MK)</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Just my initial thoughts. <EM><STRONG><FONT color=crimson>(Mine Too --regards, Matt)</FONT></STRONG></EM></SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Regards,</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dave</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B><A href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A><br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:15 AM<br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I had a brief conversation with Dean Pappas on this subject recently. Dean explained that some folks have been advocates of programming the ESC to do some footwork at various stages of battery use. He explained to me just how easy this is to do physically. It seems a few have mentioned something similar in this thread.</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I am not that concerned about raising the voltage of the battery as I see this as a somewhat clear violation of the FAI code. I am more concerned about what and how the ESC is "programmed" . I would like for some one with the electronic/software pedigree to explain to me how programming adjustable rates of voltage potential and making these adjustments automatically, does not constitute a programming violation within the rules as they exist today. </SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">When the rules were written, we were clearly dealing with RADIO pre-programmed sequences and the like, no gyros, etc. However I would argue that rate auto adjustments that are definitely possible with the ESC's of today, also qualify as a violation of said rules. Someone should sit down and think this through...I could be convinced otherwise but it needs to be a good argument</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">MattK</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Anthony Romano <<A href="mailto:anthonyr105@hotmail.com">anthonyr105@hotmail.com</A>><br>
To: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
Sent: Tue, Mar 2, 2010 8:29 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts</SPAN></FONT></div>
<div id=AOLMsgPart_3_a1464e77-3c63-4f8d-b134-28eaec9f2cea>
<div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Keep this line of thinking in mind next time we talk about weight limits! Or any other rules proposal.<br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
<br>
> From: <A href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</A><br>
> To: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:45:57 -0500<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> <br>
> OK, So I have a question. Is knowingly and purposefully violating the intent<br>
> and letter of the rules to gain a performance advantage called cheating?<br>
> ....... Just asking!<br>
> Dave Burton<br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of James Oddino<br>
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 7:16 PM<br>
> To: General pattern discussion<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> <br>
> I have the functional concept that solves the rules problem. Picture a 10S<br>
> pack positive lead wired to the common of a switch with two poles, a piece<br>
> of wire connected from one pole to a pole on a second two pole switch with<br>
> its common connected to the ESC. Between the other two poles we place our<br>
> 11th cell. When the 10S pack is above 37.5 volts the 11th cell is bypassed<br>
> and when it is below, like it will be during vertical maneuvers late in<br>
> flight, the 11th cell is put in series to boost the voltage to up to 41.7<br>
> volts. At no time is the voltage over the spec.<br>
> <br>
> Having said that, I believe the 10S system provides adequate power with the<br>
> right motor at all times of flight even if the voltage drops to 35 volts.<br>
> <br>
> Jim<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:59 AM, Bob Kane wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > Going higher and regulating down would be against the rules, the max volts<br>
> is still limited to 42.56. <br>
> > <br>
> > Bob Kane<br>
> > <A href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > --- On Mon, 3/1/10, krishlan fitzsimmons <<A href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</A>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> >> From: krishlan fitzsimmons <<A href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</A>><br>
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> >> To: <A href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</A>, "General pattern discussion"<br>
> <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><br>
> >> Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 9:54 AM<br>
> >> <br>
> >> Couldn't we go to a higher voltage and<br>
> >> regulate it back down? A contstant 42.56v would be nice!<br>
> >> <br>
> >> Chris <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> From: Chad<br>
> >> Northeast <<A href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</A>><br>
> >> To:<br>
> >> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
> >> Sent: Sun,<br>
> >> February 28, 2010 8:48:48 PM<br>
> >> Subject: Re:<br>
> >> [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> >> <br>
> >> You would be at about 50% capacity at 3.85 ish volts/cell<br>
> >> (resting open circuit), so unless you up the capacity you<br>
> >> will have a pretty restricted flight time.<br>
> >> <br>
> >> Chad<br>
> >> <br>
> >> On 10-02-28 9:25 PM, Ron Van Putte wrote:<br>
> >>> That stirs a wild thought in my brain. Fully<br>
> >> charged packs don't stay at 4.2 volts per cell very<br>
> >> long. On the other hand, once the initial charge<br>
> >> voltage is burned off by a constant load, the voltage loss<br>
> >> curve "flattens out". What if you put fully<br>
> >> charged 6S and a 5S packs in series and "burn them<br>
> >> down" to 3.869 volts per cell (a total of 42.56<br>
> >> volts for an 11-cell pack) so they were legal for<br>
> >> use. Would the voltage of this depleted 11S pack be<br>
> >> higher than a fully charged 10S pack at the end of a typical<br>
> >> flight? If the end-of-flight voltage might be<br>
> >> significantly higher for the 11S pack vice a 10S pack, it<br>
> >> would be worth investigating, even considering the extra<br>
> >> weight of the additional cell. Come on you electronic<br>
> >> gurus, show me where I'm wrong.<br>
> >>> <br>
> >>> Ron Van Putte<br>
> >>> <br>
> >>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 10:00 PM, James Oddino wrote:<br>
> >>> <br>
> >>>> What comes after ...? Does it specify a load<br>
> >> or any other conditions? Is it measured during the<br>
> >> noise test and have a minimum value?<br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> Just stirring the pot, Jim O<br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, John Fuqua wrote:<br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>>> No its not (assuming we are talking RC<br>
> >> Aerobatics). Try page RCA-2 para 4.1<br>
> >>>>> which<br>
> >> states "Electrically-powered model aircraft are<br>
> >> limited to a maximum<br>
> >>>>> of 42.56 volts.."<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
> >>>>> From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
> >>>>> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<br>
> >> On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<br>
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 7:07 PM<br>
> >>>>> To: General pattern discussion<br>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> It's in the general rules, not in the R/C<br>
> >> section.<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Jim Quinn wrote:<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>>> Where can I find the rule<br>
> >> for max volts?<br>
> >>>>>> <br>
> >>>>>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >>>>>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
> >>>>>> <br>
> >> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >>>>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
> >>>>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing<br>
> >> list<br>
> >>>>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
> >>>>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >>>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
> >>>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><br>
> >>> <br>
> >>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >>> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
> >>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><br>
> >>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
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> >> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
> >> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br>
> >> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >> <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
> >> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> > <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
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