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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Matt,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Interesting discussion/topic so far as the
legality aspect within the current rules.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>When I first started with electrics, I
showed the FAI and AMA rules to one of my early electric mentors……he
wasn’t convinced the ESCs and software used back then (7 years ago) would
be deemed “legal” in a “court of law”.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>A simple example….the timing ESCs
use is dynamic…it adjusts based on the RPM and load on the motor. So
the timing on the ground is likely different than the timing they use in the
air – ie, the motor just might turn more RPM in the air (louder). Is
this cheating the noise rule? Or is it simply a well engineered system
designed to make the most power the most efficiently?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The optimal IC setups rarely make peak RPM/power/noise
on the ground. They make more RPM/power/noise in the air. Is
this “cheating” the noise rule? Or is it simply a well
engineered system designed to make the most power the most efficiently?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’d suggest a switch on the TX that
allowed the pilot to retard the timing (and thus reduce RPM, power, and noise)
of the electric or IC system to pass the noise test and then make more power in
the air would be cheating.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dual rates are legal. Are “auto”
dual rates or “auto” snap conditions that change the airplane setup
legal? The TX is pre-programmed to react a specific way to a specific set
of conditions. This is exactly what the ESC is doing, and just what the
OS EFI does.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Just my initial thoughts.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>rcmaster199@aol.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 02, 2010
11:15 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Max volts</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I had a brief conversation with Dean
Pappas on this subject recently. Dean explained that some folks have been
advocates of programming the ESC to do some footwork at various stages of
battery use. He explained to me just how easy this is to do physically. It
seems a few have mentioned something similar in this thread.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I am not that concerned about raising the
voltage of the battery as I see this as a somewhat clear violation of the FAI
code. I am more concerned about what and how the ESC is "programmed"
. I would like for some one with the electronic/software pedigree to explain to
me how programming adjustable rates of voltage potential and making these
adjustments automatically, does not constitute a programming violation within
the rules as they exist today. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>When the rules were written, we were
clearly dealing with RADIO pre-programmed sequences and the like, no
gyros, etc. However I would argue that rate auto adjustments that are
definitely possible with the ESC's of today, also qualify as a violation of
said rules. Someone should sit down and think this through...I could be
convinced otherwise but it needs to be a good argument<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>MattK<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Anthony Romano <anthonyr105@hotmail.com><br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Sent: Tue, Mar 2, 2010 8:29 am<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_a1464e77-3c63-4f8d-b134-28eaec9f2cea">
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Keep
this line of thinking in mind next time we talk about weight limits! Or any
other rules proposal.<br>
<br>
Anthony<br>
<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:45:57 -0500<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> <br>
> OK, So I have a question. Is knowingly and purposefully violating the
intent<br>
> and letter of the rules to gain a performance advantage called cheating?<br>
> ....... Just asking!<br>
> Dave Burton<br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
On Behalf Of James Oddino<br>
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 7:16 PM<br>
> To: General pattern discussion<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> <br>
> I have the functional concept that solves the rules problem. Picture a 10S<br>
> pack positive lead wired to the common of a switch with two poles, a piece<br>
> of wire connected from one pole to a pole on a second two pole switch with<br>
> its common connected to the ESC. Between the other two poles we place our<br>
> 11th cell. When the 10S pack is above 37.5 volts the 11th cell is bypassed<br>
> and when it is below, like it will be during vertical maneuvers late in<br>
> flight, the 11th cell is put in series to boost the voltage to up to 41.7<br>
> volts. At no time is the voltage over the spec.<br>
> <br>
> Having said that, I believe the 10S system provides adequate power with
the<br>
> right motor at all times of flight even if the voltage drops to 35 volts.<br>
> <br>
> Jim<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:59 AM, Bob Kane wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > Going higher and regulating down would be against the rules, the max
volts<br>
> is still limited to 42.56. <br>
> > <br>
> > Bob Kane<br>
> > <a href="mailto:getterflash@yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</a><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > --- On Mon, 3/1/10, krishlan fitzsimmons <<a
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> >> From: krishlan fitzsimmons <<a
href="mailto:homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com">homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com</a>><br>
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> >> To: <a href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</a>,
"General pattern discussion"<br>
> <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>
> >> Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 9:54 AM<br>
> >> <br>
> >> Couldn't we go to a higher voltage and<br>
> >> regulate it back down? A contstant 42.56v would be nice!<br>
> >> <br>
> >> Chris <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> From: <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Chad</st1:place></st1:country-region><br>
> >> Northeast <<a href="mailto:chad@f3acanada.org">chad@f3acanada.org</a>><br>
> >> To:<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >> Sent: Sun,<br>
> >> February 28, 2010 8:48:48 PM<br>
> >> Subject: Re:<br>
> >> [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> >> <br>
> >> You would be at about 50% capacity at 3.85 ish volts/cell<br>
> >> (resting open circuit), so unless you up the capacity you<br>
> >> will have a pretty restricted flight time.<br>
> >> <br>
> >> <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Chad</st1:place></st1:country-region><br>
> >> <br>
> >> On 10-02-28 9:25 PM, Ron Van Putte wrote:<br>
> >>> That stirs a wild thought in my brain. Fully<br>
> >> charged packs don't stay at 4.2 volts per cell very<br>
> >> long. On the other hand, once the initial charge<br>
> >> voltage is burned off by a constant load, the voltage loss<br>
> >> curve "flattens out". What if you put fully<br>
> >> charged 6S and a 5S packs in series and "burn them<br>
> >> down" to 3.869 volts per cell (a total of 42.56<br>
> >> volts for an 11-cell pack) so they were legal for<br>
> >> use. Would the voltage of this depleted 11S pack be<br>
> >> higher than a fully charged 10S pack at the end of a typical<br>
> >> flight? If the end-of-flight voltage might be<br>
> >> significantly higher for the 11S pack vice a 10S pack, it<br>
> >> would be worth investigating, even considering the extra<br>
> >> weight of the additional cell. Come on you electronic<br>
> >> gurus, show me where I'm wrong.<br>
> >>> <br>
> >>> Ron Van Putte<br>
> >>> <br>
> >>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 10:00 PM, James Oddino wrote:<br>
> >>> <br>
> >>>> What comes after ...? Does it specify a load<br>
> >> or any other conditions? Is it measured during the<br>
> >> noise test and have a minimum value?<br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> Just stirring the pot, Jim O<br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, John Fuqua wrote:<br>
> >>>> <br>
> >>>>> No its not (assuming we are talking RC<br>
> >> Aerobatics). Try page RCA-2 para 4.1<br>
> >>>>> which<br>
> >> states "Electrically-powered model aircraft are<br>
> >> limited to a maximum<br>
> >>>>> of 42.56 volts.."<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
> >>>>> From: <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >>>>> [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]<br>
> >> On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte<br>
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 7:07 PM<br>
> >>>>> To: General pattern discussion<br>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> It's in the general rules, not in the R/C<br>
> >> section.<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Jim Quinn wrote:<br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>>> Where can I find the rule<br>
> >> for max volts?<br>
> >>>>>> <br>
> >>>>>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >>>>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >>>>>> <br>
> >> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >>>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >>>>> <a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >>>>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing<br>
> >> list<br>
> >>>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >>>>> <a
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> >>>> <br>
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> >>> <br>
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> >>> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
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> >> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
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target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> <br>
> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br>
> >> <br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
> >> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
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