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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’m curious Bill, knowing virtually nothing about any of these
chemical properties, if most of us don’t run the higher nitro primarily to
improve low end idle, and transition characteristics, rather than top end
RPM. That seems to be where the real difference is between 20% and 30%,
though an added 100-150RPM can be a HUGE difference on a 90deg day…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>-Mark<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Mark Atwood</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Paragon Consulting, Inc.</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> President</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite
130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Phone: 440.684.3101 x102 </span><b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> Fax:
440.684.3102</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1351F3'><a href="mailto:mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com"><u><span
style='color:blue'>mark.atwood@paragon-inc.com</span></u></a> </span><b><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>|</span></b><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1351F3'><a
href="http://www.paragon-inc.com/"><u><span style='color:blue'>www.paragon-inc.com</span></u></a></span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bill
Glaze<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 14, 2009 5:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gas vs Alcohol (was Newslist is flawed)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Assuredly, it's not a direct trade-off; Stochiometric is
different for the different fuels, of course. And the fact remains that
running pure methanol will provide approximately 15% more horsepower for the
fuel burned, which, again, is about twice that required for gasoline.
What it amounts to is that gasoline is the most efficient of the three
substances, but, in our case, I will admit readily that efficiency is far down
the list of requirements. I have been running some tests, (of which the
sampling is small, admittedly) and I was surprised at the small rpm difference
between 15% standard Morgan Cool Power, and 30% Heli. If you need, or can
discern, the small difference involved, then of course it justifies the use of
the 30% stuff. In my case, it doesn't seem to justify the usage.
When one mixes in the Latent Heat of Vaporization, the waters are muddied even
more, but it probably is of small concern in engines the size of ours, due to
the small swept volume, and the variation of conditions having to do with
cooling, both external and internal.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Bill Glaze<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com"
title="bob@toprudder.com">Bob Richards</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Monday, December 14,
2009 5:08 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Gas vs Alcohol (was Newslist is flawed)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Bill,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The heat energy per unit has little to do with the power
we get from an internal combustion engine. The limiting factor is how much
air we can get into the engine. Each fuel has an optimum ratio to be mixed
with the amount of air that enters the engine. Gasoline burns the leanest.
Methanol burns much richer, so more fuel goes into the engine per stroke.
Nitro is even richer. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I've also read that nitro expands to a much larger volume
when it burns, even though it puts out less heat per unit than methanol,
which is one reason why nitro by itself puts out much more power than
methanol. I may open a can of worms when I say this, but it has been my
experience in both pattern planes and helicopters that higher nitro makes the
engine run cooler. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Think about it, methanol puts out less heat per unit, but
develops more power than gasoline. Gasoline engines must have larger cooling
fins, even though less power is being developed. Gasoline burns so lean
compared to methanol, this is the reason why gasoline carbs are more
complicated than alcohol carbs. Add nitro, then the needle must be opened
more and becomes less sensitive. This may be an over-simplistic explanation
because the thermodynamics are vastly different (methanol provides a lot of
internal cooling as it atomizes) but it works for me. :-)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Bob R.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
--- On <b>Mon, 12/14/09, Bill Glaze <i><billglaze@bellsouth.net></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
From: Bill Glaze <billglaze@bellsouth.net><br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.<br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 6:28 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id=yiv1339268455>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The
specific heat generated by gasoline is about twice the specific heat
generated by alcohol, which, in turn is about twice the specific heat
generated by nitro. In other words, on a mass basis, nitro is a more
inefficient fuel on a pure basis than alcohol, which is less
efficient than gasoline. (from a volume/efficiency standpoint)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Or
so my handbook stated when I was building competition engines. Then why
use nitro at all? Well, because it generates more O2 than it needs to
burn, thereby helping the other "combustibles" complete their
combustion, and it's possible to run a hellacious load of nitro per cycle
because of it's burn characteristics.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Bill
Glaze</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="http://us.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vicenterc@comcast.net"
target="_blank" title="vicenterc@comcast.net">Vicente "Vince"
Bortone</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="http://us.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank" title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Sunday, December
13, 2009 8:48 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Matt,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>It will be very interesting to see your
results. I had the chance to build and fly the Abbra with ZDZ 40.
I was able to comparare the same plane with OS160 back-to-back. Clearly
the ZDZ 40 was behind in power (or power-to-weight ratio) when
compared with the OS 160 when doing the Master schedule of that time. I
am sure that less fuel consumption with less BTU content means less
power. The Abbra with the ZDZ 40 was ~3-4 oz over 11
lbs. The OS 160 Abbra was 9.8 lbs. I am not sure now what the new
gasoline engines manufactures are doing to increase the power. I
believe that an improvement in the design of gas engines is required to make
it usable for pattern. <br>
<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: rcmaster199@aol.com<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 10:46:09 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Yes that's true. When I was mixing my fuel I needed to do it by
volume until I figgered what the volume weighed for each of the nitro blends
I was mixing..... 30% nitro is around 10% denser (weighs around 10% more for
a tankful) than 15% nitro. <br>
<br>
Soooo....the guys who are running the YS not only use much larger tanks but
their tanks weigh more when full than they would have running lower nitro.
But YS is a dawg on lower nitro. You gotta admire YS Marketing strategy<br>
<br>
Yet another reason I am looking into gasoline powerplants for pattern. Gas is
significantly less dense than 30% nitro blend and gas engines demand less
fuel to begin with. A 320 cc tank (around 11 ozs) will run the 30 cc engine
for around 12 minutes, enough for about 1 2/3 master schedules.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
MattK<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Verne Koester <verne@twmi.rr.com><br>
To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Sat, Dec 12, 2009 11:24 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_36928406-251f-4393-a13c-29f1a41a8f4c">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The weight of fuel is going to depend in large part on the
percentage of nitro. Nitro is the heaviest component. Don’t believe it? Go to
the hobby shop and pick up a gallon of 5% with one hand and 30% with the
other, preferably from the same manufacturer. You’ll be surprised. I know I
was when a fuel manufacturer showed me at Toledo about twenty years ago.
Fortunately, pilots with glow planes are weighed without the fuel so they
don’t have to worry about that…</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Verne</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="http://us.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank"><u><span style='color:blue'>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</span></u></a>
[<a
href="http://us.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org&"
target="_blank"><u><span style='color:blue'>mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</span></u></a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bill's Email<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my
opinion.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Ed Alt wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>About 0.75 oz per fluid oz.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><br>
<br>
I just weighed a gallon of fuel I have here. It was 7.8 pounds including the
plastic jig. 0.75 ounces per fluid ounce would mean the jug weighs +/- 29
ounces (1.8 pounds). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div id="AOLMsgPart_4_36928406-251f-4393-a13c-29f1a41a8f4c"><pre
style='background:white'><tt><span style='color:black'>_______________________________________________</span></tt><span
style='color:black'><br>
<br>
<tt><o:p></o:p></tt></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span
style='color:black'>NSRCA-discussion mailing list</span></tt><span
style='color:black'><br>
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<tt><o:p></o:p></tt></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span
style='color:black'><a
href="http://us.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target="_blank"><u><span style='color:blue'>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></u></a></span></tt><span
style='color:black'><br>
<br>
<tt><o:p></o:p></tt></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><tt><span
style='color:black'><a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank"><u><span style='color:blue'>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</span></u></a></span></tt><span
style='color:black'><br>
<br>
<tt><o:p></o:p></tt></span></pre></div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>=
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-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<o:p></o:p></p>
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