<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><P>Dave,</P>
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<P>I agree 100%. I got the same experience after flying many years. For sure more torque when we increase the nitro content in the fuel. </P>
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<P>Question: I wonder if we could add small amounts of Nitro to improve the power a little in small 30-40 cc gasoline engines. I think the key is to increase the torque (no the RPM). <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Dave Harmon" <k6xyz@sbcglobal.net><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:46:25 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gas vs Alcohol (was Newslist is flawed)<BR><BR></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">True….but the big deal with higher nitro for the engines we use is not increased RPM.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Higher nitro will allow the engine to hold the RPM it already has as the propeller load goes up as the airspeed goes down…such as in any vertical upline..</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">You’ll find out if you have enough nitro on the hourglass.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Nitro makes a huge improvement in torque.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Regards<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Dave Harmon</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue"><BR>CCA 97-535<BR>K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net<BR>Sperry, Ok.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue"> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Dave Burton<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, December 14, 2009 9:06 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gas vs Alcohol (was Newslist is flawed)</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Somewhere in my past I think I learned that Nitro’s function is to increase the amount of oxygen in the combustion mix allowing more alcohol to be burned thus producing more power. you can burn a richer mixture of alcohol because of the extra oxygen in the nitro.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Atwood, Mark<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, December 14, 2009 8:43 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gas vs Alcohol (was Newslist is flawed)</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">I’m curious Bill, knowing virtually nothing about any of these chemical properties, if most of us don’t run the higher nitro primarily to improve low end idle, and transition characteristics, rather than top end RPM. That seems to be where the real difference is between 20% and 30%, though an added 100-150RPM can be a HUGE difference on a 90deg day…</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bill Glaze<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, December 14, 2009 5:26 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gas vs Alcohol (was Newslist is flawed)</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Assuredly, it's not a direct trade-off; Stochiometric is different for the different fuels, of course. And the fact remains that running pure methanol will provide approximately 15% more horsepower for the fuel burned, which, again, is about twice that required for gasoline. What it amounts to is that gasoline is the most efficient of the three substances, but, in our case, I will admit readily that efficiency is far down the list of requirements. I have been running some tests, (of which the sampling is small, admittedly) and I was surprised at the small rpm difference between 15% standard Morgan Cool Power, and 30% Heli. If you need, or can discern, the small difference involved, then of course it justifies the use of the 30% stuff. In my case, it doesn't seem to justify the usage. When one mixes in the Latent Heat of Vaporization, the waters are muddied even more, but it probably is of small concern in engines the size of ours, due to the small swept volume, and the variation of conditions having to do with cooling, both external and internal.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Bill Glaze</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message ----- </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=bob@toprudder.com href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com" target=_blank>Bob Richards</A> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>General pattern discussion</A> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Monday, December 14, 2009 5:08 PM</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gas vs Alcohol (was Newslist is flawed)</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Bill,</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The heat energy per unit has little to do with the power we get from an internal combustion engine. The limiting factor is how much air we can get into the engine. Each fuel has an optimum ratio to be mixed with the amount of air that enters the engine. Gasoline burns the leanest. Methanol burns much richer, so more fuel goes into the engine per stroke. Nitro is even richer. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I've also read that nitro expands to a much larger volume when it burns, even though it puts out less heat per unit than methanol, which is one reason why nitro by itself puts out much more power than methanol. I may open a can of worms when I say this, but it has been my experience in both pattern planes and helicopters that higher nitro makes the engine run cooler. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Think about it, methanol puts out less heat per unit, but develops more power than gasoline. Gasoline engines must have larger cooling fins, even though less power is being developed. Gasoline burns so lean compared to methanol, this is the reason why gasoline carbs are more complicated than alcohol carbs. Add nitro, then the needle must be opened more and becomes less sensitive. This may be an over-simplistic explanation because the thermodynamics are vastly different (methanol provides a lot of internal cooling as it atomizes) but it works for me. :-)</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Bob R.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>--- On <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mon, 12/14/09, Bill Glaze <I><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><billglaze@bellsouth.net></SPAN></I></SPAN></B> wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>From: Bill Glaze <billglaze@bellsouth.net><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.<BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 6:28 PM</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The specific heat generated by gasoline is about twice the specific heat generated by alcohol, which, in turn is about twice the specific heat generated by nitro. In other words, on a mass basis, nitro is a more inefficient fuel on a pure basis than alcohol, which is less efficient than gasoline. (from a volume/efficiency standpoint)</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Or so my handbook stated when I was building competition engines. Then why use nitro at all? Well, because it generates more O2 than it needs to burn, thereby helping the other "combustibles" complete their combustion, and it's possible to run a hellacious load of nitro per cycle because of it's burn characteristics.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Bill Glaze</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message ----- </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="http://us.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vicenterc@comcast.net" target=_blank>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</A> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="http://us.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>General pattern discussion</A> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:48 AM</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Matt,</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It will be very interesting to see your results. I had the chance to build and fly the Abbra with ZDZ 40. I was able to comparare the same plane with OS160 back-to-back. Clearly the ZDZ 40 was behind in power (or power-to-weight ratio) when compared with the OS 160 when doing the Master schedule of that time. I am sure that less fuel consumption with less BTU content means less power. The Abbra with the ZDZ 40 was ~3-4 oz over 11 lbs. The OS 160 Abbra was 9.8 lbs. I am not sure now what the new gasoline engines manufactures are doing to increase the power. I believe that an improvement in the design of gas engines is required to make it usable for pattern. <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: rcmaster199@aol.com<BR>To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 10:46:09 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Yes that's true. When I was mixing my fuel I needed to do it by volume until I figgered what the volume weighed for each of the nitro blends I was mixing..... 30% nitro is around 10% denser (weighs around 10% more for a tankful) than 15% nitro. <BR><BR>Soooo....the guys who are running the YS not only use much larger tanks but their tanks weigh more when full than they would have running lower nitro. But YS is a dawg on lower nitro. You gotta admire YS Marketing strategy<BR><BR>Yet another reason I am looking into gasoline powerplants for pattern. Gas is significantly less dense than 30% nitro blend and gas engines demand less fuel to begin with. A 320 cc tank (around 11 ozs) will run the 30 cc engine for around 12 minutes, enough for about 1 2/3 master schedules.<BR><BR><BR><BR>MattK</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Helvetica color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Verne Koester <verne@twmi.rr.com><BR>To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Sat, Dec 12, 2009 11:24 pm<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=#1f497d size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The weight of fuel is going to depend in large part on the percentage of nitro. Nitro is the heaviest component. Don’t believe it? Go to the hobby shop and pick up a gallon of 5% with one hand and 30% with the other, preferably from the same manufacturer. You’ll be surprised. I know I was when a fuel manufacturer showed me at Toledo about twenty years ago. Fortunately, pilots with glow planes are weighed without the fuel so they don’t have to worry about that…</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=#1f497d size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Verne</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A href="http://us.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT></A> [<A href="http://us.mc11.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org&" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT></A>] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bill's Email<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:16 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This email list is flawed in my opinion.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">Ed Alt wrote: </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">About 0.75 oz per fluid oz.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><BR><BR>I just weighed a gallon of fuel I have here. It was 7.8 pounds including the plastic jig. 0.75 ounces per fluid ounce would mean the jug weighs +/- 29 ounces (1.8 pounds). </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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