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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Dave:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>My understanding, (generated by someone on this
list, I don't remember who) is that the 5K limit was set up because in Europe
(France, maybe?) a model airplane that weighs more than 5 K is lifted out of the
"model" category, and must have a different certification. And, the 2 M
size is, also, an FAI limit, as I understand it. Can you imagine having to
have your model certificated by the F.A.A. in this country?
Jeez!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Willing to listen to any rebuttals; as I say, the
above is mostly hearsay.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bill Glaze</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bill Glaze</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=burtona@atmc.net href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">Dave Burton</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:37
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This
email list is flawed in my opinion.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">What
is the purpose of the 5K limit? Is it to limit cost? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dave
Burton<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dave<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:05 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This
email list is flawed in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">“</SPAN>I’m
having a little problem understanding the logic of some of the anti-weight
arguments. If you are one that feels a pattern plane performs best with
a YS 1.60 at 11 lbs then, by all means, continue to compete with that
setup. However, the weight increase would allow others to take a hard
look at alternate power sources whether it be gas or electric.”<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>*************Electric IS being flown now…and multiple
gasoline engines have been used (and still could be, and maybe are by
some).<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>“Remember, we are talking a weight limit increase and not a
size increase.”<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>*************Bigger flies better. Pythons, Elans,
Prophecies, Arch Nemesis, etc…..all were/are 2M planes (ok, the Elan was only
76”), and none are competitive today. Why? Because the 2M today is
bigger (and cost more) because the displacement limited was lifted. The
2M plane today is limited by weight…remove the weight limit, and the 2M plane
will again get bigger (and more expensive).<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>“The added weight would probably also drive new muffler,
accessories, airplane designs, and put pressure on suppliers to provide
lighter weight and more powerful gas engines. The electric boys could
expand their battery alternatives. All are exciting prospects for the
NSRCA, which is admittedly hurting for new blood and interest.”<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>*************Save the electrics (which don’t need any help
in my opinion), this is the exact same discussion made by proponents for
removing the engine limit. And the cheaper engines and gasoline engines
for pattern never materialized…the OS and YS simply got bigger (more
expensive) and the planes got bigger (more expensive).<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>“As to cost, I think that argument is a non-starter.
When you factor in the cost of glow fuel versus gas or electric power, 30%
nitro is roughly 10 times more expensive than gasoline. Do the math…a
season of 100-200 flights with gasoline is going to offset any perceived
increase in equipment costs. Savings in fuel also rapidly offsets the
higher electric costs.”<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>*************What is cheaper to buy and run… a 50cc or
100cc gas engine? There are viable gas engines now if that is your
preference.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>There are ZERO instances in pattern history I know of where
increasing any limit resulted in anything other than an increase in
cost.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Regards,<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Dave Lockhart<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Bob
Wilson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 12, 2009 11:29 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] This
email list is flawed in my opinion.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Personally, I’m for a weight increase, whether it’s a pound
or two or even unlimited as Dave advocates. I think it would be good for
the NSRCA by driving interest and new technology.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I’m having a little problem understanding the logic of some
of the anti-weight arguments. If you are one that feels a pattern plane
performs best with a YS 1.60 at 11 lbs then, by all means, continue to compete
with that setup. However, the weight increase would allow others to take
a hard look at alternate power sources whether it be gas or electric.
<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Remember, we are talking a weight limit increase and not a
size increase. The 2-meter rule insures that the aircraft won’t escalate
in cost like we see at IMAC. However, if someone wants to design a new
biplane design to compensate for the added weight…so be it…go for
it.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>The added weight would probably also drive new muffler,
accessories, airplane designs, and put pressure on suppliers to provide
lighter weight and more powerful gas engines. The electric boys could
expand their battery alternatives. All are exciting prospects for the
NSRCA, which is admittedly hurting for new blood and interest.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>As to cost, I think that argument is a non-starter.
When you factor in the cost of glow fuel versus gas or electric power, 30%
nitro is roughly 10 times more expensive than gasoline. Do the math…a
season of 100-200 flights with gasoline is going to offset any perceived
increase in equipment costs. Savings in fuel also rapidly offsets the
higher electric costs.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Finally, the 5kg (11 lb) limit was established back in the
1930’s for Free Flight airplanes. Within the FAI/CIAM both RC Scale and
RC Helicopters recognized the need to change the rules. Both did that
with increases to 7kg and 6kg respectively. Certainly, pattern deserves
the same consideration.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Bob Wilson<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Gordon Anderson <<A
href="mailto:GAA@owt.com">GAA@owt.com</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Mike,<BR><BR>Well said, I totally agree with your comments.
I am one of the people who rarely comment.<BR><SPAN
style="COLOR: #888888"><BR>--Gordon</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR>mike mueller wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I have a hard time with a lot of the feedback that
circulates on this email list. It's too limited by the amount of people who
respond and the ones who do are usually the same guys. I find some of
the ones that respond a lot to be closed minded and are never swayed by a good
argument.<BR> I would warn people that asking for an opinion here may
have a very different response than say RCU where you get a broader audience
to sample from. I wish there was a way to get more people to respond
with opinions. I fear many have been drivin away.<BR> I also wish we
would all not be so quick to shoot down these opinions as it results in less
people asking for one and sharing any thoughts with us.<BR> I enjoy an
open discusssion with a lot of people chiming in.<BR> I respect the
opinions of everyone and do what I can to listen to the points of both sides
to form an opinion. Often the responses kill the
debate.<BR> Listening is a skill.<BR> There are times when some of
you could be wrong.<BR> Thanks for letting me share my
thoughts.<BR> Mike Mueller<BR><BR><BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><BR><BR> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P
class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
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target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P>
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